The Vancouver Canucks fired their head coach and general manager on Sunday. Jeff and Elliotte discuss the changes in western Canada, the timing of them, the hiring of Bruce Boudreau and the impact he may have on the players, and why it was time to move on from Jim Benning.
The Vancouver Canucks fired their head coach and general manager on Sunday. Jeff and Elliotte discuss the changes (00:01), the timing of them, the hiring of Bruce Boudreau and the impact he may have on the players, and why it was time to move on from Jim Benning.
Outro Music: Aaron Frazer - Bad News
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Full transcript for the episode can be found here by Medha Monjaury
This podcast is produced and mixed by Amil Delic, and hosted by Jeff Marek and Elliotte Friedman.
The views and opinions expressed in this podcast are those of the hosts and guests and do not necessarily reflect the position of Rogers Sports & Media or any affiliates.
OPEN //// Jeff Marek [00:00:00] You just cool your thumbs, you put your feet up, will land the plane here son.
Jeff Marek [00:00:06] Major changes in Vancouver. Welcome to 32 Thoughts the Podcast presented by the all new GMC AT4 Lineup. Elliotte. It was the the slowest moving story, but it hit a peak crescendo on Sunday evening. Here's what we know or actually help fill in some blanks of what we know at 8:25 Pacific time. Benning is out. Green is out. Those are the two majors. Those are the two primaries. Colour in the rest.
Elliotte Friedman [00:00:35] So I think what has happened and, we've talked about this. There's one manager who joked that, oh, I can't wait to hear about Vancouver for the ninth straight podcast.
Jeff Marek [00:00:44] Yeah I know.
Elliotte Friedman [00:00:45] But this is actual news. So I think we documented it, Jeff. And that is that the Vancouver Canucks, you know, you go back to about a month ago, they had that weekend where they lost three games in four nights, on the Saturday night they lost in Vegas, on the Sunday night they lost in Anaheim. You know, this was an organisation that hoped they'd challenge the Pacific division this year, be in the playoff race, and all of a sudden they weren't even close, and ownership had a big meeting on the Monday, and they said, okay, well we're not where we want to be here, and if it doesn't turn around, what are we gonna do? And they started, you know, looking into names, seeing who was around there. You know, I think they looked into some names, figured they'd better go deeper, kind of look around Montreal and make some changes, okay, there's some new people available, continue doing their research. And the one thing I was told and we talked about Claude Julien and and the other possibilities there, and the one thing I was consistently told, Jeff, was they're not making any long term moves until they're sure that they have the people they want. And it wasn't getting better. I mean, they did have two wins this week against Montreal and Ottawa, but then you go home, you have a night like the one you had against Pittsburgh, the fans are throwing jerseys on the ice. They're booing, there's the "fire Jim Benning" chants. But what I really think hit them in addition to all of that, at the end of the game, seeing the look on Travis Green's face, seeing the look on the players' faces. You could see it, Jeff, they were out of answers.
Jeff Marek [00:02:22] Mhm.
Elliotte Friedman [00:02:22] And the Boudreau thing. My guess is, and it's only a couple hours since the word got out that he's being hired. My guess is that they've been talking to him for a few days. That's my guess. I don't know that, but it's my guess based on, I don't think they were the only team considering hiring Bruce Boudreau. So I think the Canucks and anyone else who might have been thinking about it, they were kind of sitting there knowing he might come off the board soon. So, Benning situation, I don't think they know who they're hiring to run their hockey ops yet. So we're expecting an interim there, and that makes sense. And Boudreau, one thing I was trying to figure out was the term, well we now know it's this year and next. So it's not a long term. So basically, we've got a situation here is, Vancouver made changes maybe before they thought they were going to, but they didn't do anything with term because I just don't think they were ready to commit to that yet.
Jeff Marek [00:03:26] So a couple of things here and I wanna get to Boudreau and whether this hiring means that they think they can quote unquote "save the season," but back to Travis Green for one second. Listen, we saw the jersey hit in the ice, the cut away to Travis Green. We've talked about the thousand yard stare before that Travis Green has had on occasion after another Vancouver loss. Just put it bluntly, was this a mercy firing? Because they'd just signed him to an extension.
Elliotte Friedman [00:03:55] I think it was just a realisation it wasn't going to get any better. You know, one of the things I really believe this is about, is about players like Pettersson and Boeser. You look at Boudreau, his history is, offensive players score under him.
Jeff Marek [00:04:08] Yeah.
Elliotte Friedman [00:04:08] And offensive players play big minutes under him. And offensive players get opportunities under him. Pettersson and Boeser are really struggling. And, you know, if you saw last night, both—in the intermission we mentioned about Pettersson's ice time.
Jeff Marek [00:04:23] Yup.
Elliotte Friedman [00:04:23] That he was on a streak of some of the lowest ice times of his career. Now there's a good debate about that. You know, you can't fool your players. They know who deserves the ice time and who does not. But at some point in time you have to say, this is our franchise cornerstone and we have to get him back out there. And I think that's what this is gonna be about is, how can Bruce Boudreau, who thinks the game very offensively, get Pettersson and get Boeser, amongst others, going?
Jeff Marek [00:04:53] Okay, so let's talk a little bit more about Boudreau. We're gonna get to Benning here in a couple of seconds, but while we're on on the topic: the move to go to bruce Boudreau, because the one thing we know about Boudreau is he can give your team a shock, right? Like whether it's, I mean, most recently with the Minnesota Wild, before that, the Anaheim Ducks, and he came in—in Washington 2000... was it '07-'08 and took that Washington Capitals team, it took to game 82 against the Florida Panthers, and they needed some help along the way, but got them into the playoffs.
Elliotte Friedman [00:05:23] Yes.
Jeff Marek [00:05:23] When at the beginning of that season, it looked very bleak. Like it's almost like, Bruce Boudreau is that "in case of emergency break glass" hiring? Does this mean to you, Elliotte, that this is a hiring with the mind of, we can still salvage the season because this is the guy that's done it before?
Elliotte Friedman [00:05:45] Yeah. Now you're sound like David Amber predicting the Canucks are gonna make the playoffs on Saturday night. Look, are you hoping for a miracle? Sure, you're hoping for a miracle. But I think one of the things that kind of happens, Jeff, is that I think you're also just trying to get like we talked about a second ago, your best offensive players back and going.
Jeff Marek [00:06:05] Mhm.
Elliotte Friedman [00:06:05] And also, you know, maybe you play a style where even if you're not back in the playoff race, your fans are gonna be entertained to come to games. You just have to try something different.
Jeff Marek [00:06:17] Yeah.
Elliotte Friedman [00:06:17] Craig Simpson says this all the time. The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. It was time, and I just think they didn't want to make a long-term commitment. They are comfortable with this commitment, but what they wanted to do was at least say, we have to try to fix the things that aren't working.
Jeff Marek [00:06:39] Okay, to the Jim Benning decision because, you know, your tweet was the first one about Bruce Boudreau being the next coach. And many said, hold on a second here, how can they replace the coach if the General Manager is still in place? Isn't that backwards? We subsequently find out that it is a double dismissal.
Elliotte Friedman [00:06:57] Irf Gaffar was the first to confirm it.
Jeff Marek [00:06:59] Yeah.
Elliotte Friedman [00:06:59] I just couldn't prove it, right? And credit to Irf, he was the first one to be able to prove it. This was coming eventually.
Jeff Marek [00:07:06] Sure.
Elliotte Friedman [00:07:06] They'd made a decision, they were gonna make the change. And I just think they decided to do everything all at once. Now, you know I believe that the owner really liked Benning. And I don't think that was an easy call for him? But you know, you reach a point where you—you have to do what you feel you need to do. You know, Jim Benning can't say he didn't get an opportunity there. He was there for almost a decade. And at the end of the day, it was time. And it's that simple.
Jeff Marek [00:07:38] Do you think these moves... Let the players off the hook?
Elliotte Friedman [00:07:42] No, I don't think that. And one of the reasons I think that is also is that, they waited a lot longer than a lot of other people would have to make the changes, and that was one of the reasons. You know, they could have made moves right after that Vegas-Anaheim weekend.
Jeff Marek [00:07:59] Mhm.
Elliotte Friedman [00:07:59] And one of the reasons they didn't, I heard, was because they wanted to send that message.
Jeff Marek [00:08:04] Well, the reason I mention it is, normally, and I know the word normal doesn't mean much a, you know, tightly salary cap NHL, where there's not going to be an increase in the salary cap next season, and two, during a pandemic as well. And there's nothing normal about any of this. But normally the way these things happen is, before there is a coach dismissal, the General Manager tries a trade to try to jolt the team and also to indicate to the team that if, you know, I may want to fire the coach or may have to fire the coach down the line here, but I'm not letting you guys off the hook. I'm gonna see if we can shock the system first.
Elliotte Friedman [00:08:42] Yeah.
Jeff Marek [00:08:42] I'm gonna see if we can give you guys a jolt. Jim Benning wasn't allowed to do that.
Elliotte Friedman [00:08:48] Yes, I think that's true because like I said, I think that ownership looked at it like, we're not making any mistakes that we're gonna regret for a long time.
Jeff Marek [00:08:58] Mhm.
Elliotte Friedman [00:08:58] And to be honest, in this time where there's an interim setup running the team Jeff, I'm not convinced they're gonna be doing any major surgery.
Jeff Marek [00:09:07] You think this to stay the course right until the end of the season now for the Vancouver Canucks?
Elliotte Friedman [00:09:12] I don't know if it's to the end of the season, but I think it's for now. You know, what have we seen the last couple of weeks? All of a sudden there's a change in Montreal.
Jeff Marek [00:09:21] Mhm.
Elliotte Friedman [00:09:21] You know, we're all sitting here looking at Philadelphia, right? What's gonna give there? You know, Jeff, the stresses is on in the league. There's no question about that. The stress is out there. I think if you're the Canucks, you're sitting there and saying, okay, who's gonna be available?
Jeff Marek [00:09:41] Hmm.
Elliotte Friedman [00:09:41] That's what I think is going on. I think they're going through the names and then they're looking at the rest of the names and considering, okay, who's not available yet, but we think could be. All of that, I believe, is going on right now. Now, if somebody calls you and says, I want ex-player and I'm prepared to give you this unbelievable deal, you look at it and you say, whoa! Then all of a sudden you got to make a decision. But generally, I don't think Vancouver's in a position right now where they're looking to make major immediate surgery. As a matter of fact, I think they've decided, as you talked about, they were doing the exact reverse.
Jeff Marek [00:10:21] Yeah.
Elliotte Friedman [00:10:21] They were slowing down everything to precisely avoid making that kind of a mistake
Jeff Marek [00:10:27] Because you always wonder about where a team considers itself to be in their winning cycle. And sometimes the General Manager can think that they're further along the road and they make a deal that really should be made at the last minute, instead they make it early, and it costs them. Okay, like the one of the obvious examples there is probably someone like Phil Castle with the Toronto Maple Leafs. Other people have said the timing of the J.T. Miller deal was probably off. That's someone you bring in at the last minute, not early when you're rebuilding a team. Where do you think that Vancouver, the Aquilinis... Do you have a sense of where they think they're at and how close they are to being on an uptick in their winning cycle?
Elliotte Friedman [00:11:13] Well, I think we've talked about that. I think they thought this was gonna be a good year for them, right?
Jeff Marek [00:11:18] No, what I'm saying is like, like now, in light of everything that's happened. Like, do you recalibrate where you think you are?
Elliotte Friedman [00:11:24] I think they're in shock. Absolutely, I think they're completely stunned by this.
Jeff Marek [00:11:30] See, that's why I wonder about subsequent moves of players.
Elliotte Friedman [00:11:35] Well, I think when you're in this situation and I know that people in Vancouver wanted blood and they wanted it fast, but sometimes I think that's the worst thing you can do. Most of the time, I think that's the worst thing you can do.
Jeff Marek [00:11:50] Mhm.
Elliotte Friedman [00:11:50] And slowing down the situation is oftentimes the right thing. And in the Twitter social media speed world, people don't like to hear that, but that's the right approach. I think what this year has done is, look, they were building towards this. Whether you agree with their plan or not, okay, as an organisation they were building towards this year. This was going to be a big year for them, okay? And look at where it went. So now, to their surprise and disappointment, what they thought they were building to was wrong. So now they're sitting here and saying, okay, where are we? And what are we gonna do to fix it? And they're still in that process. Like, they made these changes today, Jeff, but that doesn't mean the process is finished.
Jeff Marek [00:12:44] You see, because, you know, Benning made these moves in the offseason, and we all said, this is the indication that Benning knows if it doesn't work this year, there's gonna be major changes. And, you know, here we are in early December, it hasn't worked and we've seen changes. But I mean, they brought in like, I mean, the obvious one is Oliver Ekman-Larsson, right, who's at the $7.2 million cap hit through to 2027. You know, they got rid of a lot of, you know, bad contracts, but they were bad expiring contracts, and they cleared those decks to make way for a shot at it this year. I don't know like I, I just look at it and I say, to your point, they must be shocked. They must be feeling a little bit overwhelmed and they must be confused about their team right now. Like, what do you do with the Vancouver Canucks right now? Like, you're the, you know, you're the—you're either the interim manager or you're the full time manager. What do you do with this team? Where is this team?
Elliotte Friedman [00:13:50] I think you're calling a timeout. I think they're doing the right—like I said, I know the Canucks fans wanted blood, and on Sunday they got it. But in these moments, I always think, slow it down.
Jeff Marek [00:14:05] Mhm.
Elliotte Friedman [00:14:05] You got to a situation that was untenable after Saturday night, and what they did was, they did what they were hoping to do. And that is not to do any long-term commitment in a rush, and they accomplished that. They've got an interim GM, and they've got a coach who's got a lot of experience and will try to get their best players going, but not at a long term. If they were going to make a change, they didn't break from their plan. Now they've got to do the same thing with their players. Who can we count on? Who can we not count on? And what are we gonna do about it? And don't race into anything.
Jeff Marek [00:15:02] It's funny because that manager, the Texan, says, oh, I can't wait for the ninth update on the Vancouver Canucks to lead the podcast it's certainly funny and, but it's not without its truth. I mean, this was a constant update, whether it was on this podcast, on the radio show, it doesn't matter it was on almost every day. What did you make of this entire season of the Vancouver Canucks? Like this story and the vitriol and the Twitter fights and—and the arguing and the nastiness?
Elliotte Friedman [00:15:33] When you go into markets, you have to understand them, right?
Jeff Marek [00:15:37] Mhm.
Elliotte Friedman [00:15:37] What are you getting into? You know, Mark Bergevin. He thought he knew what he was getting into in Montreal, and he lasted there for a decade. And we talked about him, it aged him, like George Bush or Obama.
Jeff Marek [00:15:53] Got him jacked too.
Elliotte Friedman [00:15:55] Yeah, well, he was always jacked. Bergevin was in great shape. But he reached a point where he said, I can't do this anymore, and I'll say this, that one thing I kind of realised now is... you know, I think Bergevin... I don't know if he said it or it was kind of brought up or how it happened, but I think Bergevin when he knew he wasn't getting an extension, I think he was ready to go at the beginning of this year. And I kind of wonder if everybody could do it over again, they would say, maybe we should have done this at the beginning of the season.
Jeff Marek [00:16:26] Mhm.
Elliotte Friedman [00:16:26] But I think in Vancouver, you know, the same thing can happen. It's a tough market, it's a tense market. But the one thing I always say, like people ask me about hockey in Canada and I say, if you win, you're a god there.
Jeff Marek [00:16:44] Mhm.
Elliotte Friedman [00:16:44] Or if you play hard and you have—yeah, there's down moments, and when it goes bad, it sucks. But if you win, you're a god there. And that's the trade-off, right? That's the battle. But when it's bad, like all you had to do is watch the team as they left the game on Saturday night. And when we went to the chairs, that's what Kevin and Kelly were talking about. Like, they know what it's like. Kelly, just as a player, Kevin is a player from Vancouver. They know what it's like when the game is over and you're just sitting there, and you're thinking to yourself, what do we do? Like Boudreau, you know Boudreau, he loves to coach. He wants this challenge.
Jeff Marek [00:17:28] Yeah, yeah.
Elliotte Friedman [00:17:28] He wants this challenge. But he knows the rewards are high, but the valleys are low and you have to be—and even if you're prepared for it, I don't think sometimes you always understand it. But you know, if it's just me, and this is just me, I would love the opportunity to do something where the rewards would be enormous if I was successful, so I can't wait Jeff until I find something I'm actually successful at.
Jeff Marek [00:18:02] I wanna ask you, how do you how you think Bruce does with that market? The one thing we know about Boudreau is, he's charming, people like him, he's a great interview, he's a great quote, he does not hide his emotions at all. He's a very expressive person. He's a great storyteller. We talked earlier about him being able to jolt the team to get the most out of offensive players specifically. How do you think he does in this market? I don't know that, like, I don't know that they've ever had anyone like Boudreau before.
Elliotte Friedman [00:18:37] Yeah, that's a good question. Off the top of my head, I can't think of anyone.
Jeff Marek [00:18:41] Like they've had like, I don't know, just to get like, personality like, Harry Neale, like Roger Neilson was smart. Like, they've had a lot of smart people there, right? They've got—they've had a lot of intelligent coaches. Harry Neale, dry humour, like quick-witted, but they've never had anyone like Boudreau.
Elliotte Friedman [00:18:59] Like Paul Maurice is a good example out of this. Like a lot of people really like Paul Maurice, but he can be really biting and sarcastic.
Jeff Marek [00:19:06] Yes.
Elliotte Friedman [00:19:07] People who think that Bruce Boudreau is this cuddly, funny guy all the time?
Jeff Marek [00:19:13] No, he's nasty. He can be totally nasty.
Elliotte Friedman [00:19:15] But that's the thing like, to be a good coach, to be successful, the nice, even the nicest people have to be nasty from time to time. And I think people are gonna be surprised at that because he's going to have games where he's going to be like that and I don't think it's a problem. I think it's—it's totally normal. And I think people are gonna find that that edge is there more than you realise, like I've seen that on people before. So, you know, will he be funny? Yes. Will he have light moments? Yes. But will he have situations where he bites people's head off or he's nasty and snarky? Yeah, of course he will, because that's the way coaches have to be sometimes. And when you're losing, you're really like that because losing sucks. So I think you're gonna see both sides of him.
Jeff Marek [00:20:00] Okay let me ask one more thing about Bruce Boudreau, but with respect to the players. Whenever a new coach comes in... this is a sweeping generalisation, but here I go. There's always one or two guys that really benefit from the new coach. Like, you look like, oh, this guy's gonna get along great with Player X and player. Are there two obvious candidates for you, knowing Boudreau and seeing his pass with Washington, Anaheim, Minnesota? Are there a couple of players that you look at and you go, oh, this is a dream situation for these guys?
Elliotte Friedman [00:20:37] I think Pettersson. There's no way they were hiring Boudreau without talking to him about Pettersson, and probably Boeser too. But the number one problem they have to fix this like, look, they—they have to fix their defence, yes, they had to fix their defence and their systems and stuff. But from an individual point of view, the guy they've gotta fix is Pettersson. And there's no way to me that they didn't do this without a lengthy conversation about Pettersson. So it's Sunday night and we wanna get this out, and Jeff has to be up early because for whatever reason, he feels indebted to Sid Seixeiro that he has to wake up early and do breakfast TV on Mondays.
Jeff Marek [00:21:16] Every Monday, every Monday, I'm on with Sid.
Elliotte Friedman [00:21:18] You're—you're, you know, there's no question you're a much better guy to him than he is to you. Like, there's no question.
Jeff Marek [00:21:24] I miss him. I miss hanging out with Sid.
Elliotte Friedman [00:21:26] Ah Sid's a good man. You know, just some other things to keep an eye on, like Philly?
Jeff Marek [00:21:31] There was a tough loss against Tampa and that the Mathieu Joseph shorty ahhhhh. Carter Hart gets pulled and ahhhhh.
Elliotte Friedman [00:21:40] And he's generally played really well. Here's the thing that really concerns me about Philly okay? So, Chuck Fletcher, like the media's all asking to meet him, so he comes out, he says, we've all gotta pull together. They lose Wednesday in New York. But here's the thing that really concerns me about it okay?
Jeff Marek [00:21:58] Mhm.
Elliotte Friedman [00:21:58] So after the loss to New York, they have three days off.
Jeff Marek [00:22:01] Yeah.
Elliotte Friedman [00:22:01] Look at Tampa's schedule. They play at Minnesota the Sunday before, they play at St. Louis the Tuesday before, they come home to St. Louis on the Thursday, then they play Boston at Boston on the Saturday. So Philly is their fifth game in eight days, okay? Now they had a day off in between every game, but it's a tough schedule, okay?
Jeff Marek [00:22:27] Yeah.
Elliotte Friedman [00:22:27] They shouldn't be winning that game 7 to 1.
Jeff Marek [00:22:31] I was gonna say, does that feel like a 7-1 schedule game? Like, no.
Elliotte Friedman [00:22:35] As a matter of fact, I had a guy I know who likes to bet, he was all over me to bet Philly in that game, because he said that is a scheduled defeat for Tampa. And, you know, obviously the betting doesn't mean everything, but they're gonna play Colorado on—
Jeff Marek [00:22:52] Was that David Amber? Was that David?
[00:22:53] No!
[00:22:53] It was David.
Elliotte Friedman [00:22:55] It would be something Amber would do because it's a losing move, like nobody has worse losing gambling moves than David.
Jeff Marek [00:23:01] I'm there Saturday with you too, I know how you behave.
Elliotte Friedman [00:23:04] But that's the thing that concerns me. It's not only that you lose, it's that, you know, they're playing the day before, you're sitting there waiting for them.
Jeff Marek [00:23:12] Yeah.
Elliotte Friedman [00:23:12] I was thinking about doing a pod like, look, let's do all the good situations that we haven't talked about yet. Things like, okay, Columbus has really been good. Detroit's been a big surprise.
Jeff Marek [00:23:25] Minnesota. Minnesota's good.
Elliotte Friedman [00:23:25] Minnesota is fantastic. Seattle's on a hot streak. Why don't we just do one? Washington is having a stunningly great season. Why don't we just do one podcast where we talk about good situa—Anaheim—good situations for a change?
Jeff Marek [00:23:43] Chris Kreider's scoring a lot of goals.
Elliotte Friedman [00:23:46] Rangers, absolutely. But all these bad situations keep on ruining our lives and our podcast.
Jeff Marek [00:23:52] Dallas Stars are hot, Jake Oettinger's a star, this is great. You know, Aaron Ekblad is having a Norris trophy-type season.
Elliotte Friedman [00:24:00] Alright, go to bed. You gotta get up early.
Jeff Marek [00:24:02] I do. I do. I do. I do.
Elliotte Friedman [00:24:03] So quickie news podcast for this Monday morning and we got an interview. Were taping that I think on Monday that I think you'll be happy with, and then we'll do a news positive podcast later in the week.
Jeff Marek [00:24:13] Alright, taking us easy today. And I swear this is not an Audible called by Amil this is just the way the tune popped up, according to Amil Delic, out music curator. Taking us out is a Brooklyn-based songwriter who's currently on tour with Black Pumas. Aaron Frazer comes with a classic look and a classic sound as he steps away from the drum kit to centre stage. His debut record, "Introducing..." takes a listener on a lyrical journey. From one of the great albums of 2021, here's Aaron Frazer with, and we're not making this up like this just came—here's Aaron Frazer with Bad News on 32 Thoughts—.
Elliotte Friedman [00:24:53] You're kidding.
Jeff Marek [00:24:53] It's true, man—the Podcast.