Jeff and Elliotte discuss the trade between the Maple Leafs and Coyotes, discuss Montreal's mini win streak and their interest in Marie-Philip Poulin, and they break down the latest from Chicago's GM search.
Moves are being made! Jeff and Elliotte fire things up with a trade that saw Toronto send Nick Ritchie to Arizona with a conditional second-round pick for Ryan Dzingel and Ilya Lyubushkin (00:20). The guys break the deal down from both sides and wonder if the Maple Leafs have more moves in the works. They also discuss Montreal’s mini win streak (9:00) and their interest in Marie-Philip Poulin (32:30), Edmonton making a push under Jay Woodcroft (15:20), Eichel starting to find his touch (18:00), the Blackhawks GM search (20:20), the big news out of the PHF (35:00), and they take a few listener questions to wrap up the podcast (42:30).
Jeff and Elliotte say a few words about the late great Emile Francis (39:00). Our thoughts and prayers go out to the friends and family of Emile Francis.
Full transcript for the episode can be found here by Medha Monjaury
Music Outro: Busty and the Bass & Cadence Weapon - Airplanes
Listen to the full track by Busty and the Bass & Cadence Weapon on Spotify
This podcast is produced and mixed by Amil Delic, and hosted by Jeff Marek and Elliotte Friedman.
Audio Credits: KUFX 98.5 FM, Sportsnet, Toronto Marlies and the Vegas Golden Knights Radio Network.
The views and opinions expressed in this podcast are those of the hosts and guests and do not necessarily reflect the position of Rogers Sports & Media or any affiliates.
OPEN //// Jeff Marek [00:00:00] George Costanza.
Elliotte Friedman [00:00:04] Yeah, thanks for listening.
Jeff Marek [00:00:05] I'm doing my Elliotte Friedman impression.
Jeff Marek [00:00:10] Welcome to 32 Thoughts the Podcast presented, as always, by the all-new GMC AT4 lineup and a subheader to this podcast should always be Elliotte, When News Breaks, Elliotte Fixes It. You had this on Saturday moments before it was announced. Officially, the trade between the Toronto Maple Leafs and the Arizona Coyotes, Ilya Lyubushkin, Ryan Dzingel, in exchange for Nick Ritchie and a conditional draft pick, we'll look at this from both side, the Toronto side and the Arizona side. We'll start with the Maple Leafs. How did you see this deal from Kyle Dubas's point of view?
Elliotte Friedman [00:00:42] Well first of all Jeff, I would just say that someone told me to keep an eye on whether or not Lyubushkin was gonna be playing for Arizona on Saturday night. And when I saw that he was not, immediately the Bat-Signal went up in the air, or the Coyotes signal, or the Leafs signal, whichever whichever signal that you prefer.
Jeff Marek [00:01:01] [Howling]
Elliotte Friedman [00:01:01] You know, that's gonna live forever, I just want you to know that, I'm gonna make sure that Amil sends me that, and that sound effect is going to live forever. But that was the cue: did Lyubushkin dress on Saturday night for Arizona in their game, and when he didn't, have a good feeling something was up. Now, I think for Toronto, Toronto was looking for D. We all kind of know that. I think they decided that if they were doing a rental, they weren't gonna be trading a first round pick for it, I don't think. I also don't think that they were doing one of their top prospects for a rental. You know, people are gonna ask them for... Knies.
Jeff Marek [00:01:42] Yeah.
Elliotte Friedman [00:01:44] Knies looks like, you know, he's a real steal for them.
Jeff Marek [00:01:46] Yes.
Elliotte Friedman [00:01:47] You know, they have some other really good prospects, too. And Toronto was just saying, look, we're not doing that. Lyubushkin is a good fit for them. He's a right hand shot. He's not much of an offensive player, but he's a pretty good defensive player, and he's physical. He's not a guy who's gonna wow you with his speed game, but he knows who he is and he fits at the bottom of their D. I think that's a really good pick up for them. As we all know, Nick Ritchie, he wanted to move on, there was no path for him back to the NHL until at least the playoffs, barring injury. They clear his cap room for next year. You know, Arizona liked Ritchie, and the other thing too is prior to acquiring him, Arizona had only five players under contract for next season.
Jeff Marek [00:02:37] Yeah.
Elliotte Friedman [00:02:38] You know, last week when I reported that there was some traction on Ritchie, I didn't know it was the Coyotes, but I probably should have guessed it? It made sense. And, you know, that's why, they have to give up a pick later on, it's either gonna be a third rounder in 2023, or a second rounder in 2025, but they didn't have to give up any salary because, I understand why Arizona would be a spot for him. They take back Dzingel, we'll see if he clears waivers after the podcast is dropped but, this is about clearing Ritchie's salary next year, and Lyubushkin is a player that Toronto can use.
Jeff Marek [00:03:15] Now the question becomes, as you mentioned, Lyubushkin is a right hand shot, so then what does this mean then of Justin Holl and Timothy Liljegren? I think that's one of the sidebar questions coming out of all of this. Any idea?
Elliotte Friedman [00:03:28] Well if you look at it right now, Toronto has a situation on D what, Sandin's getting his chance to play second pair, Liljegren's also had a chance to move up a little bit in the lineup. I think they're trying to see exactly what they've got here. They still have another month before the deadline to see if they wanna do anything else defensively. Like I still think it's a possibility, I wouldn't want to rank it on a scale of one to 10, but I still think there's a possibility that Holl moves or Dermott moves. I don't think Toronto's given up yet on, you know, the possibility of that. But I think they wanted to strengthen their D and they saw Lyubushkin as a relatively cost effective, underrated kind of player. They don't have guys like him, really. Like his skillset is a bit different than they've got and the kind of skillset they want like one of the guys I think Toronto looked at over the last month was Klingberg. I think he was someone they considered, but they didn't do it, number one, I think the acquisition cost might have been higher. And number two, I think also that they kind of look at it and say, we've got guys like him. He's a good player who I think they like, but they've got guys like him. Lyubushkin is... something that they really didn't have. I don't necessarily think that Dubas is finished tinkering with his defence. It might end up that nothing happens and this is what they've got, but I don't think it's impossible that he continues to tinker with it, specifically with Holl.
Jeff Marek [00:05:03] Okay, let's have a look at this then from the Arizona Coyotes' point of view. As you mentioned a handful of players under contract going into next season but, what's desirable from their point of view, picking up Nick Ritchie and letting go of Lyubushkin and Dzingel? Why does this work for them?
Elliotte Friedman [00:05:18] You know, Dzingel wasn't really working out there. You know, they could always resign Lyubushkin next year.
Jeff Marek [00:05:24] Yup.
Elliotte Friedman [00:05:24] I think Ricthie makes sense for them. I've heard that the team liked Ritchie as a player. You know, when I was first told about them trying to move Ritchie and there was traction on it, I wasn't sure I really believed it, and someone said to me, you know, Toronto wasn't the only team that liked Ritchie last summer. There were other teams that liked him, and clearly Arizona was another of them. But I think it comes back to what we just talked about, you know, Arizona, they're gonna make some changes. They're gonna need to fill out their roster. And Nick Ritchie, I mean, did you see his media availability last week? Like--
Jeff Marek [00:05:59] Oh yeah.
Elliotte Friedman [00:05:59] It was really driven.
Jeff Marek [00:06:01] Oh yeah. Oh yeah.
Elliotte Friedman [00:06:10] It was really dreary and down.
Jeff Marek [00:06:13] Get me outta here.
Elliotte Friedman [00:06:31] Here he knows he's gonna play. He's gonna play in Arizona, and he's gonna play next year in Arizona because they don't have really a huge roster yet. So, you know he wants to play. He made it very clear he wants to be in the NHL. He's gonna be in the NHL. He's not gonna be on the outside looking in. I don't think it's as if Toronto didn't give Nick Ritchie a chance. They did give Nick Ritchie a chance.
Jeff Marek [00:06:57] Put him on the first line.
Elliotte Friedman [00:06:58] It didn't work out, okay? And he, he was done here until the playoffs, unless somebody got hurt that gave him enough room to be activated. But basically, he was their 13th, 14th, 15th forward at best, whatever number you wanna give him. There, he's gonna play. You know, Jeff, we've kind of talked about this. Is Arizona gonna have trouble getting players to play there next year if they're in that Arizona State arena? Well, Nick Ritchie, that's not gonna be a problem. He's gonna be there and he's gonna be fine with it. And I think that's another win for them too.
Jeff Marek [00:07:33] You know, one side in the Toronto point of view of this trade is the freeing up of cap space next season.
Elliotte Friedman [00:07:39] Yeah.
Jeff Marek [00:07:40] And I don't know about you, but I can't help but marrying this move to the next Jack Campbell contract, because not only now do the Maple Leafs rid themselves of Nick Ritchie's salary for next season, but also Phil Kessel comes off the books at $1.2 million as well.
Elliotte Friedman [00:07:57] Mhm.
Jeff Marek [00:07:57] That gets you a little bit warmer to resigning Jack Campbell. That's part of what it looks like to me like the savings here, go right to the goalie offer. Agree-disagree?
Elliotte Friedman [00:08:08] I think that makes a lot of sense Jeff. As you know, them and a number of other teams like them are gonna need every penny. And so everything that comes off the cap is gonna go towards something that they absolutely need to fill in and goalie makes perfect sense.
Jeff Marek [00:08:23] So it's just a beginning then you think of a bunch of moves here from Arizona? Trade deadline is approaching. We've talked plenty about Jacob Chychrun this year, we've talked plenty about Phil Kessel, the impending UFAs that the Arizona Coyotes have. Is this the beginning now?
Elliotte Friedman [00:08:40] Johan Larsson.
Jeff Marek [00:08:41] Johan Larsson, you've written about him, I know you like him.
Elliotte Friedman [00:08:44] I do like him, even though he won't be healthy for the trade deadline, he should be healthy for the playoffs.
Jeff Marek [00:08:49] Is this the beginning of it?
Elliotte Friedman [00:08:51] I think so. The one timeline I just can't figure out yet is Chychrun. You know I do think they want to trade him. I just don't think they've gotten to a point yet where they feel anyone stepped up to the place they want anyone to go.
Jeff Marek [00:09:04] Okay from the Toronto Maple Leafs Arizona Coyotes then let's transition to the Montreal Canadiens, and I wanna get to the Marie-Philip Poulin stuff that we discussed on Saturday on hockey night but! Don't look now. But the Montreal Canadiens have just won... two games in a row. And the last time we spoke on this podcast we talked about the effect that Martin St. Louis was having on Cole Caufield. Should we also throw Jeff Petry into that conversation as well? Is it just me, or does he look like the old Jeff Petry all of a sudden now under Martin St. Louis? Like the Habs look way different, like it was like five minutes ago, they're getting clubbed 8-2 by Minnesota, 7-2 by Edmonton, and 6-3 by Columbus. Now, all of the sudden, you know, they're holding teams like, you know, the Islanders and the Blues and Columbus, to two goals a game. I don't know what this is. You know, the old financial term is dead cat bounce, but there's something happening with Montreal right now. The team is tightening up defensively and some players are excelling offensively at the same time. Cole Caufield and Jeff Petry as well. As they say in French, [que es que se passe], what's going on here Elliotte?
Elliotte Friedman [00:10:18] I didn't know you were bilingual. That's excellent.
Jeff Marek [00:10:20] [Speaking in French]
Elliotte Friedman [00:10:24] [Speaking in French]
Jeff Marek [00:10:25] [Speaking in French]
Elliotte Friedman [00:10:26] Their dead cat bounce came a little bit later too because at the beginning, you know, Boudreau's came right away and Jay Woodcroft's came right away. St. Louis' took a couple of games. I think there's a couple of things here. First of all, I just don't think you can play that bad for that long under a guy like St. Louis. I just don't think he's gonna stand for it, especially since he's new, he's really not gonna stand for it, and he has some power. The other thing too is, it's in Jeff Petry's best interest to... get going here, and I would bet that someone told him that. I would bet he had a come to Jesus moment with someone, I don't know if it was St. Louis or his own agents who said to him, Jeff, you know, if you want out of here and he does, you have to start playing a lot better, because he still has term on his contract and it's a big number at 6.25.
Jeff Marek [00:11:15] Yeah.
Elliotte Friedman [00:11:15] And I would say it's more likely to happen in the summer than the deadline, although not impossible, but it's not gonna happen if, you know, he's hurting his own trade value by going through the motions. And I guarantee that someone said to him, If you really want to go now, you gotta play great, and he's smart enough to know that that's the case. I was also very happy, by the way Jeff, for Andrew Hammond, who won that game in New York.
Jeff Marek [00:11:40] Yes. Yes!
Elliotte Friedman [00:11:41] Yeah, just one of the all-time great stories. You know, the Hamburglar, you know he's, that's a guy who loves hockey. Like, he's still going, he is still going, and he got back into the NHL and he won, and I was really happy to see it, and as you tweeted out, you love the--.
Jeff Marek [00:12:00] The green!
Elliotte Friedman [00:12:00] Playing with your old colours in new uniforms.
Jeff Marek [00:12:02] I love it! So true!
Elliotte Friedman [00:12:04] This is going in a totally different direction. I don't know if I ever told this story before, but...
Jeff Marek [00:12:10] What's up?
Elliotte Friedman [00:12:10] Someone told me that--and I was reminded of it today, when Hammond was having his unbelievable run in Ottawa, that there was a game where in warmup, he was so tired he couldn't stop a shot. Like Ottawa scored every shot in the pregame warmup, the one right before puck drop. And the story was told that a couple of the leaders on the Senators team went to, I can't remember who was coaching the team at the time, but they went to the coach and they said, you know, he can't play tonight. He's, he's exhausted, he can't stop a buck. We're gonna get killed. And I guess the coaches and, I think Pierre Dorion was the GM at the time, I guess they just said, like, we have no other option. He's got to play. So you guys are gonna have to, you guys are gonna have to find a way. The story goes that he was unbelievable in that game and he made like a billion ridiculous saves and they won again. And at the end of the game apparently they went to these players and they said, yeah I guess he was too tired to stop a puck eh? And the players players were laughing that they'd never seen anything, they'd never seen a goalie have such a bad warmup before and have an unbelievable performance. I was really happy for Andrew.
Jeff Marek [00:13:18] You know who I used to love watching warm up just because he wouldn't even move other than just a wave his arms and more of a symbolic gesture than anything else just to say like, yeah I'm fine, just get me out of warmup here, just let me play? Greg Millen. You remember watching Greg Millen warm up? He would like, so many times I'd watch him just sort of stand there, pucks would come in he'd just sort of wave his arms back and forth, wouldn't move his feet just like I'm fine for the game. I don't need this, I guess this is the little dance we have to go through before the game but just get me out of here. I just want to get to the game. I'm a competitor.
Elliotte Friedman [00:13:52] That sounds like Jay Bouwmeester and Alex Pietrangelo "why're you skating today?"
Jeff Marek [00:13:56] It does! "Why are you skating today?" I used to love watching Millen warm up, get to the rink early to watch him stand there and just wave his arms at pucks that will go past him like I don't care, I just want, I just wanna get to the game.
Elliotte Friedman [00:14:07] I had a friend who was a really good soccer player, and he would ask me in high school to sometimes play goal for him. We'd go to a park and they had one of those soccer football goal operates there. So he'd just say, like, would you play goal for me? I would periodically. But there was one day I was feeling particularly lazy. He had a high shot, like a really like he just used to loft it over me if I came out to challenge him.
Jeff Marek [00:14:32] Yeah.
Elliotte Friedman [00:14:32] And I said, if you do that today, I'm not jumping because I just don't feel like being embarrassed like that today. So he would do it and I wouldn't jump and he would get so angry at me. That only happened once, but then he'd blast--he had a hard shot too, he got so mad, he blasted one off my chest. I felt like I was hit with a shotgun. That guy was a good soccer player.
Jeff Marek [00:14:54] That reminds me of a story that I saw at the draft once where I saw one general manager holding cigarettes above another general manager, making him jump up to grab them because he had telephoned from one table to the other table, asking if they had smokes.
Elliotte Friedman [00:15:09] I'm trying to think of who a short GM would be and a tall GM would be.
Jeff Marek [00:15:12] Honestly, one of the funniest things ever seen, period. Now everyone's gonna scramble to try to figure out who that is. You mentioned Jay Woodcroft a couple of seconds ago now, as we record this podcast.
Elliotte Friedman [00:15:27] You know they're having a rough night.
Jeff Marek [00:15:28] Things are not going very well for the Edmonton Oilers, it is 4-to-1 at the time of this recording right now, the 9:13 p.m. Eastern on Sunday, Kevin Fiala has a pair, Evander Kane has answered for the Edmonton Oilers and Mike Smith hasn't had the best of all possible nights. He's already received the hook. But leading up to this one? Oilers were perfect under Jay Woodcroft. And they had won games against the Islanders, the Sharks, the Kings, the Ducks, and the Jets. But there's a stretch now for the Edmonton Oilers where it's like, okay, let's see what they're really made of here. Tonight is Minnesota. And then it's Tampa, Florida, Carolina.
Elliotte Friedman [00:16:09] Yup.
Jeff Marek [00:16:09] Next Sunday. This is the tough one. Let's really see what we have under the hood here.
Elliotte Friedman [00:16:15] And look what those teams did to Calgary, you know, two months ago.
Jeff Marek [00:16:18] Yeah.
Elliotte Friedman [00:16:19] So... look, Edmonton's played a lot better, we've talked about it. You've gotta get saves. So we'll see if they get saves. You know the one thing I just wanted to mention was, so when Jay Woodcroft got hired, Ken Holland said, We'll take this through the end of the year and then we'll see where we are. Jay Woodcroft doesn't have a contract for next year.
Jeff Marek [00:16:37] Hmm.
Elliotte Friedman [00:16:40] Anywhere. So he's not just auditioning for the Oilers. You know someone brought it to my mind, he's auditioning for everybody. Now I've gotta think if he continues anywhere near where he's at now. You know, Edmonton's gonna make sure he doesn't go anywhere else.
Jeff Marek [00:16:56] Right.
Elliotte Friedman [00:16:56] But someone did point that out to me that his contract's up. So. I'm really curious to see, you know, at what point Edmonton decides to, you know, make a decision on this, because if they continue going the way they're going, there's certainly gonna be other interest. I also wanted to shout out tonight, we should mention that if you have not been watching what's been going on with the Oilers lately on their regional broadcasts, you haven't been seeing Gene Principe's hair.
Jeff Marek [00:17:24] Oh, the feathers.
Elliotte Friedman [00:17:25] Gene has let his hair go long and tonight during the game Sunday night, he's getting a cut for the Zebra Centre, which, according to its mission statement, improves the lives of children impacted by abuse. So great job, Gene. And excellent, excellent work there in creating some financial support and awareness.
Jeff Marek [00:17:48] And great feathers along the way. Gene, Gene has the biggest head of hair in the industry and the biggest heart in the industry as well. Gene, well done. And even though this game is ongoing as we record this podcast, the Vegas Golden Knights are beating the San Jose Sharks 3-nothing and in this game, the second goal of the game after Keegan Kolesar gave the Vegas Golden Knights a 1-nothing lead, Jack Eichel has scored his first goal as a member of the Vegas Golden Knights, congratulations and we welcomed him back last week.
Jeff Marek [00:18:47] And you now have an answer to the question you asked on the last podcast.
Elliotte Friedman [00:18:53] Yes, I would like to thank Dan D'Uva, the great radio voice of the Vegas Golden Knights, at that faceoff between Colorado and Vegas that night. The opening draw was MacKinnon-Eichel and they were talking and I was wondering what exactly was being said, and Dan did a pregame interview from Friday night, Eichel's second game, and he asked Eichel exactly what was going on.
Elliotte Friedman [00:19:40] So it's nothing earth-shattering, and I'm betting it was a bit more direct than--maybe colourful than Eichel was saying in the interview with Dan but I really appreciate him asking the question so we could hear the answer because, I was curious just watching them, you knew something was going--it was some kind of greeting, and I was just curious about it.
Jeff Marek [00:20:00] We should mention as well Eichel has an assist to go along with that goal, his second, and who knows, by the time this game is over, he may have more, but good to see Jack Eichel certainly back and certainly producing his, as we've mentioned plenty of times on the podcast, this guy's good, let's not let that slip. Let's talk about the Hawks here quickly. Is there anything new to report on the Chicago Blackhawks and their GM search, do we have a timeline, a target date, any new names? Anything, Elliotte?
Elliotte Friedman [00:20:29] A few things. First of all, we've kind of joked about the unique and eclectic list of characters? The wide spectrum of people that you're wondering how they could end up on the same list. And I wondered, you know, who was responsible for selecting all of these different choices? And I got an answer on that. I heard that it was a combination of Danny Wirtz, Jaime Faulkner, and Mike Forde from Sportsology, they were putting together all the candidates. The NHL had some input here in saying, you know, you should interview this person or this person. I don't think the committee was involved in the selection of candidates, but they were kind of brought into... I don't know if the right word is to just, you know, give their opinions or kind of offer some feedback, but I don't think they were involved in selecting any of the choices.
Jeff Marek [00:21:26] Mhm.
Elliotte Friedman [00:21:26] And that makes sense to me because it sounds to me like there are some... I don't know if I wanna say competing agendas, but different ideas. You know, I've said from the beginning, I don't think I'm the only one. You know, I think Danny Wirtz favoured the incumbent Kyle Davidson. I think Jaime Faulkner and Mike Forde had some other unique candidates they wanted to bring in, different ones. So as far as we know, there were seven people interviewed. Someone said to me there might be eight, but we know of seven. Kyle Davidson, the incumbent. Peter Chiarelli, Scott Mellanby, and Mathieu Darche from the NHL. Eric Tulski, also from the NHL. Jeff Greenberg from the Cubs, and Teresa Resch from the Raptors. And apparently they were all ranked, is what I heard. I don't know how many people were on each individual interview. I think there were three or four. But apparently they were all ranked. And by figuring out, you know, who kind of moves on to the second round, we're going to figure out how everybody here was ranked. I have to say that, I don't know how to handicap it right now. You know, we talked on Friday about Teresa Resch and would she really leave the Raptors for this. If she was the preferred candidate, and I could always be proven wrong, but some people were telling me they didn't think she would. We'll find out I mean, I haven't spoken to her so, and I don't want to put words in her mouth. I was kind of told by a few people that they would be surprised that she would want to take this job at this time. I heard Greenberg from the Cubs interviewed really well, and then I think it comes down to how they felt about the other candidates. The one that's really interesting to me is Tulsky, because I think there's a growing sense here that he will be a general manager in the league someday. Like we know a lot about all these other candidates. Some of them, like Chiarelli and Mellanby, have been around for a while. They know Davidson. Darche has been in the NHL for a couple of years. I think we kind of have a good handle on all of those candidates. The one interesting thing to me about Tulsky is that, someone who knows him from another team said that the next phase in his evolution is going to be just having more responsibility in terms of interacting with other teams. I think in Carolina right now, Don Waddell does a lot of that.
Jeff Marek [00:24:21] Mhm.
Elliotte Friedman [00:24:21] And this person said to me that's what he thinks the Tulsky's next thing is. Like he said, Tulsky may get this job, he may not. But he said that once he thinks that Tulsky starts doing that a lot more for Carolina, then it's only a matter of time. That's what this person told me. He said that that's where he's going there. I will say this, I had a lot of conversations with some people around. The Resch story that we had and the Green story that was done, I had a lot of people ask me about that like, what do you really think here, what do you think this is about? I think there's a lot of people in the league right now wondering where all of this is going. Glenn Healy once told me, Healy was one of the best people I ever dealt with in terms of just advising me on my career because he speaks very bluntly and honestly, like, there's no lying with Healy. Whether he tells you something nicely or he doesn't tell you something nicely, you're gonna hear the truth, and it's usually going to be good for you. And he always told me that, you have to look at your seat, as I did as a goalie. He said I was one of, initially there were 42 goalies because he started when they were 21 teams. But eventually, you know, he was there when there were, you know, 60 goalies. And he said, there's only 60 spots and somebody wants your spot and everybody is gonna try to take your spot away from you. And he said someday I knew that someone was gonna beat me out for my spot. And he said, Elliotte, someday someone's gonna beat you out for your spot. But in the interim, you're gonna try to fend off a lot of people who are trying to take it from you. You know, when you're a GM, people always want your job. But you've kind of thought there were, I don't know if a limited pool of candidates, but a certain pool of candidates was coming for these jobs. Now what the Blackhawks are doing is they are opening the door to an even larger pool of candidates that are coming for these jobs. And some people will say that's a good thing, and some people will say that's a bad thing, but, it's a true thing. A lot of people in the sport are saying, where are we going for this? Is this real? Is this for show? Can a person who's not, quote unquote a hockey person really be a GM in the NHL? To me, it reminds me of Pinball Clemons in some way retiring and becoming the GM of the Argos. They surrounded him with great coaches, but Pinball knew football and was a really smart guy. This has opened a lot of people's eyes to a lot of things, I think we're really wondering here where we're going. But the other thing that I heard about this is, is that it's very clear that the Blackhawks are a scarred organisation by what happened. And there's a lot of healing that needs to be done there. And I think the organisation knows it. I think the organisation is really hurting. And, you know, also what happened with Rocky Wirtz a couple of weeks ago? That's one thing that's been made kind of clear to me that, you know, the world moves on. Our attention spans are so fast that, you know, there's something's a big story for 15 minutes and then we kind of move on to the next thing, that's what social media is kind of done to a lot of our brains. But the Blackhawks aren't like that, and they shouldn't be really. But it's a hurting organisation that knows that they've got a lot to do to fix internally. And that's why I think that they have found it so important to go out there. I don't know what the answer's gonna be here, but it's opened up a lot of thought about where we're going. Does all of that make sense?
Jeff Marek [00:28:30] It does and I wanna add one thing to it here and... I think the most intriguing person here is Eric Tulsky. Because he comes from a couple of different paths. And this speaks to the idea that you talked about in the beginning of this conversation, which is who's making the decision here? Danny Wirtz has his own frame of reference. JaimeFaulkner has her own frame of reference. Mike Forde another one altogether. But Eric Tulsky comes from the world of nanotechnology. Before hockey analytics it was nanotechnology and business, industry, and then he dovetailed that into his work in analytics and dovetailed that into a career in the National Hockey League. But he can speak to a lot of different people in a lot of different ways like he can talk industry with business people. He can talk hockey and analytics and analyse the game with hockey people as well. To me, I look at Tulsky and I say, he can have a conversation with anybody that's interviewing him in that room, which probably raises a lot of eyebrows for everybody in that room at that time, and it makes me wonder who has the ultimate decisionmaking powers here.Like who has the final say. If it's Jaime Faulkner, I might be leaning towards Eric Tulsky. If it's Danny Wirtz, I might be leaning towards someone else. But to me, he's the most interesting person out of all of them, just because of the nature of the conversations he can have with all those people in that room. And I know he's not the most household name, and I know he's someone who's always sort of existed in the shadows in the NHL. And, you know, people that are deep in the industry really know Eric Tulsky and respect his work and always have. But to me, he's the most intriguing guy just because of what he brings to the table and his ability to communicate with a lot of different people. Does that make sense to you?
Elliotte Friedman [00:30:28] It absolutely does. You know, I had someone tell me that they really thought the Melllanby was the best candidate too, and I mentioned all my thoughts about Tulsky even more, and I do think he's gonna be a GM someday for a lot of those reasons you just mentioned. You know, I had someone who spoke to me very passionately on behalf of Mellanby because they think he's a guy who's been around a long time. He played for 20 years.
Jeff Marek [00:30:55] Yeah.
Elliotte Friedman [00:30:55] Who survives for 20 years in the NHL? He had a lot of players, young and old, who swore by him. He worked as an executive for a long time. If you believe in working your way up and, and doing every job to get to this point, he's done it. You know, the other thing too is, is Mellanby and I have one particular connection. You know, he's got a boy, Carter, who's on the spectrum. And I just know how Scott and his wife have dedicated themselves to Carter. Like, I think that kind of thing is very important because it, it teaches you a lot of different emotions and behaviours that you need to do to be a good and empathetic executive. I just don't know where this is all going to go. We have seen a couple of searches here. Vancouver, we started with Patrik Allvin, we ended with Patrik Allvin. Montreal we started with Kent Hughes, we ended with Kent Hughes. Chicago, we started, I think, with Kyle Davidson. I'm not as certain where this is gonna end, but I think we will get some clarity this week.
Jeff Marek [00:32:25] Okay welcome back to the podcast. Saturday, Elliotte, we talked about Marie-Philip Poulin, her future and the Montreal Canadiens. Now, thankfully, if you're a Canadian hockey fan, Marie-Philip Poulin wants to keep playing. I believe based on nothing other than how I feel that she wants to go through one more Olympic cycle. She wants to compete again one more time at the Olympics.
Elliotte Friedman [00:32:48] I would back you on that Jeff. I've heard that that's her choice. She wants to play one more cycle.
Jeff Marek [00:32:53] But as we talked about on Saturday as well, that hasn't stopped teams like the Montreal Canadiens from reaching out and sometime before the Olympics, well before the Olympics, the Montreal Canadiens did reach out to her representatives at Momentum Hockey just to see, you know, where she's at, what she wants to do, where her head is at post-Olympics. And the Montreal Canadiens, as we now know it, are very interested in having a conversation with Marie-Philip Poulin, with the caveat being, when she is ready. It sounds like, Elliotte, whenever she's ready, the Montreal Canadiens are ready.
Elliotte Friedman [00:33:32] I think that's a very fair way to do it and if you're the Montreal Canadiens, that's smart. And when you're taking a look at the, the relationships here, the marriages between the female players and NHL teams, is there one that needs to happen more or has to happen more than Marie-Philip Poulin and the Montreal Canadiens? Like to me that's such a no-brainer that has to occur. The Canadiens, when her time is right, the Montreal Canadiens should say, yey, you're not going anywhere else. We're not even letting you look at any other organisation. You're coming here. And it sounds to me like the Canadiens have pretty much privately made that clear. And they're being smart about it, they're saying, when it's your time, we'll talk about it. But that's what it sounds like to me that when eventually she decides to make her decision that she wants to work for a team, the Canadiens are gonna do everything they can to, to bring her there. This is gonna be one of the most unique post-Olympic periods for a lot of these players. I don't know if they've ever had more options than they're gonna have now, whether it's working for a team, whether it's going into broadcasting. You know, you had a story on Saturday night about the Premier Hockey Federation's Commissioner Tyler Tumminia is resigning, and I think we all believe there's going to be more of a path for this. I don't know if it's ever been a more interesting or fascinating time for a lot of these players. I think they're gonna have more options than basically have ever been available to them, which is a good thing.
Jeff Marek [00:35:09] One of the things that I wonder about too, and the other thing that I reported on Saturday too, was the PWHPA is, you know, continuing conversations with various NHL teams to see if they can figure out a way to work more with them on a consistent basis. You know, showcase coming up in Washington, the Capitals are all over this. We've seen, you know, associations before between the PWHPA and the St. Louis Blues, the Chicago Blackhawks, the New York Rangers, the Toronto Maple Leafs, etc. You know, one of the things that I wonder about here and this just may go back to, you know, when I first started, you know, watching hockey as a kid, you know, little did I know that, you know, there was in, in the middle of this war between the NHL and the WHA. And you know, the WHA was, you know, actively raiding players from the NHL, Bobby Hull, being the most famous one, lured away from Chicago to play in Winnipeg. I wonder if that happens here. You know, the PHF, the Premier Hockey Federation just pumped $25 million and a benefits package and a doubling of their salary cap into their ecosystem. And I wonder if we start to see not unlike what the WHA did in the '70s, that organisation trying to raid players just by waving money. I'm curious about that. Like I think I think there's a number of intriguing scenarios that are gonna play themselves out here in the next weeks and months to come Elliotte. It's a fascinating time I think to follow women's hockey.
Elliotte Friedman [00:36:42] By the way, Jeff.
Jeff Marek [00:36:43] Yes.
Elliotte Friedman [00:36:43] I had some people ask me since you broke this story. What happened with Tyler Tumminia? Come on like, spill the beans. Don't hide out on this podcast.
Jeff Marek [00:36:53] I will! Like because we get paid for this? You get paid for this Elliotte? I will tell you everything that I know. I reached out to Tyler Tumminia on Saturday morning, and she indicated that she spoke to the board back in January and told them that she would be stepping down, she would not be seeking renewal of her contract, effectively resigning her position at the end of the playoffs. The first question I asked her is why? And she said she's not prepared to talk about that right now. And I said, where are you going, and she wasn't prepared to talk about that either. So I think one day we'll get the answer, but I think it's probably gonna be sometime after the the PHF concludes their playoffs. But I am not hiding out on this one. I don't know, she didn't tell me, and I think she'll probably wait until she's ready to talk about it. I don't know. I really don't know.
Elliotte Friedman [00:37:47] So Jeff?
Jeff Marek [00:37:47] Yeah.
Elliotte Friedman [00:37:48] You know, I understand that Tyler Tumminia's gonna want to talk about this on her own schedule and we're not going to pry this out of her, but I'm thinking of George Costanza in Seinfeld when Jerry says he slept with Elaine, and says he doesn't feel like details and, and George Costanza says, you're not in the mood? Well you better get in the mood because I want some details!
Jeff Marek [00:38:11] Well, sorry, I have no details to share on this one, I really I, I don't. I know as much as you and Amil know about the reasons behind this.
Elliotte Friedman [00:38:21] All right well it's gonna be interesting because, I will say this, the, the world of these leagues, the women's leagues, it's never boring.
Jeff Marek [00:38:30] And especially leagues that are all going, and we talked about this a couple of podcasts ago, going through growing pains. This is what these leagues are going through. The PWHPA is going through it, the PHF is going through it right now, if there's ever one entity, I'm sure that that league will go through their same growing pains as well. It's just where the game is at right now Friedge and it ain't perfect.
Elliotte Friedman [00:38:53] But what is?
Jeff Marek [00:38:55] Uh, you and me. This podcast. Amil!
Elliotte Friedman [00:38:57] That's it. Nothing else. Just us.
Jeff Marek [00:38:59] You know, I thought I was, I thought I was incorrect once, but I was wrong. So we'll just move along. Elliotte before we get to some emails and some phone calls here, hockey lost a legend. Hockey lost a giant. And I don't know if you ever got a chance to talk to Emile Francis, but one of the kindest, nicest people that I've ever had a chance to talk to. And I think I talked to him four or five different times, twice off the air and three separate interviews. Emile Francis passes away at the age of 95. We can think of him as a goaltender and we can look at gloves on goaltenders' hands and say, thanks Cat, because that was him with that modified first baseman's glove and introduced that to the NHL. We can think of him as a coach. We can think of him as a general manager. That's kind of how I think of Emile Francis as a general manager of the New York Rangers during a time where, as you've mentioned before, they should've won a Stanley Cup. And I think one of the great lost rivalries to time has been that Rangers-Bruins rivalry which was so great and so nasty, but so skilled and so much fun, this is like late 60s, early 70s. A Hall of Famer, you know, he oversaw the the G-A-G line, the Goal A Game line with Ratelle, Gilbert, and Hadfield, also went on to manage the St. Louis Blues in the Hartford Whalers as well. You have a thought or two on the Cat, Emile Francis?
Elliotte Friedman [00:40:24] Well someone said to me that one of the things that Emile Francis should be famous for is that he once launched an incredibly verbally abusive tirade at Harold Ballard. And this person told me that everybody wishes they swore at Harold Ballard like Emile Francis did this one time. And it was around the end of the WHA and the battle that was going on in the NHL between whether or not to absorb the teams or end the battle and things like that. Ballard was one of the people who wanted the WHA just to bleed to death?
Jeff Marek [00:40:59] Yeah. Oh yeah
Elliotte Friedman [00:40:59] He and Francis, and Francis was one of those who said, let's just end it and bring the teams in, and they were on opposite sides, and Ballard made some crack to Francis, and apparently Francis just destroyed him verbally. Like said everything to Harold Ballard that you would ever want to say to Harold Ballard. And this person told me that Emile Francis won at life because he got to do that when a lot of other people would've liked to, but couldn't.
Jeff Marek [00:41:24] He was such a fascinating guy, and, you know, even... I don't know if you ever had a chance to interview him, the last interview that I did with Emile Francis. The one thing I remember specifically was we talked a lot about Terry Sawchuk, the late Terry Sawchuk, and he brought up a point that I'd never thought about until that moment. But, you know, Emile told me he was the last person to see Terry Sawchuk alive.
Elliotte Friedman [00:41:50] Hmm.
Jeff Marek [00:41:50] He was the last person to visit Terry Sawchuk before he passed away in hospital. He was such an interesting guy, such wonderful stories and was such a huge part of the game for so many years. Listen, thoughts and condolences from all of us here to the, to the Francis family.
Jeff Marek [00:42:31] Okay Elliotte, wrap up the podcast here with some emails. Thanks for emailing in. 32thoughts@sportsnet.ca, calls as well, thought line always open 1-833-311-3232. We start in Oak Harbour. Zach submits this one. "What is a conditional pick? I keep seeing this discussed regarding the Toffoli trade and what Vancouver may do. Sports people seem to think it's great. To me, it looks like you're just forced to wait for potential help. How is this a good thing?"
Elliotte Friedman [00:43:03] For example, the trade we talked about at the top of the podcast Toronto-Arizona, Arizona gets a choice of which pick it wants to use. So the conditional pick is, do you want to choose this pick or that pick? So that's what it is. Now there was something that was changed a couple of years ago. It used to be, like, for example, there were situations a couple of years ago, this was changed two years ago. Let's just say for argument's sake, Jeff, you were traded to Tampa Bay for a first round draft pick.
Jeff Marek [00:43:33] I could see why they'd want me yeah, I understand that.
Elliotte Friedman [00:43:34] Yes. I mean, I know this is totally farfetched and they're much smarter than that.
Jeff Marek [00:43:39] Yup! Smart organization.
Elliotte Friedman [00:43:39] But there could be something added to the trade where if you re-signed in Tampa, Tampa would owe the trading team another pick. Those were taken out. The players association argued against those, they said, teams should not lose another pick for a player making a free agent choice. So those no longer are allowed. But the conditional picks are things like, for example, Edmonton and Duncan Keith. If Edmonton goes so far, I believe it's the Stanley Cup Final, and Keith plays a certain amount, the third round pick becomes the second. All that stuff is legal. I remember a couple years ago there was a trade that Calgary made with Dallas, it was Chris Russell, and if Dallas went to the third round of the playoffs, Calgary got another pick out of it. And I remember going into that great Game 7, Calgary fans, Dallas is playing St. Louis, Calgary fans were cheering for Dallas because they wanted another first round pick. And they lost so they didn't get it. But those kinds of things happen all the time, if two sides are willing to agree, you can have conditions on these draft picks, but one thing you can't do anymore is have a condition based on a player re-signing with the team he's trading to because the players association didn't like that and blocked it.
Jeff Marek [00:45:04] Lari in Finland. First of all, congratulations on the gold medal.
Elliotte Friedman [00:45:08] I assume that's L-A-R-I?
Jeff Marek [00:45:09] That is L-A-R-I, correct.
Elliotte Friedman [00:45:12] Yes, congrats on the gold medal!
Jeff Marek [00:45:13] Congrats. Excellent. And the celebration looked... not safe for work and a lot of fun at the same time.
Elliotte Friedman [00:45:19] Those are the best celebrations.
Jeff Marek [00:45:21] "Greetings from Finland. What kind of contract do you think Laine is going to sign? It seems like Columbus has to either trade him or sign him long term or else he might just take his qualifying offer and become a UFA at just 24." What's the update with Patrik Laine, Lari from Finland would like to know.
Elliotte Friedman [00:45:39] I think he's right. You know, Jeff, I think we talked about this on one of your shows last week about, Columbus is gonna have to make a decision here.
Jeff Marek [00:45:47] Yup.
Elliotte Friedman [00:45:47] Like Patrik Laine, he's different than most people, and I don't say that as a negative. I don't know how many players would have just taken their qualifying offer this year like he did. You know a lot of players wouldn't do that, but he did it, and I think you have to be prepared for the possibility, I'm not saying that it's going to happen, but, you know, I've heard people say that, based on that, Patrik Laine is not going to be afraid potentially of saying next year, you know what, I'll just take my qualifying offer and go become an unrestricted free agent.
Jeff Marek [00:46:17] Yeah.
Elliotte Friedman [00:46:17] So I do think that it's gonna be Columbus's call in the sense of, how do they feel about all this? Are they comfortable with that? Or do they sign him now like I had people telling me earlier in the season they thought Laine was going to eventually be traded, because Columbus would just say, you know, we're not ready for this now, it's not the right time for us, this doesn't make sense, and we know he could take his qualifying offer and walk. Now I'm not saying that's what's gonna happen, but I think there were teams prepared for that eventuality. I just think that Laine's a different thinker, he's not afraid of going short term, and I think Columbus is aware of that and they've gotta decide what they want to do.
Jeff Marek [00:46:56] He's on a heater too.
Elliotte Friedman [00:46:58] Yeah he is on a real heater.
Jeff Marek [00:46:59] Really been playing great. I love this question. [Gus] from Tel Aviv sends this one: "I have never understood why a penalty is wiped out if a team scores on the delayed penalty." [Gus], bless you. "Even with the goalie pulled they don't actually have a full advantage. It doesn't make sense to me to say, 'you did something worth assessing a penalty for, but because the other team scored a goal, you won't be punished for it.'" Good point. "I think the player should still have to serve it. Looking forward to Jeff loving this idea and Elliotte hating it."
Elliotte Friedman [00:47:32] Yeah. You know, I'm becoming more of, like five years ago I would've hated that and thought it was stupid. But in my old age, I'm beginning to think that we just need to promote as much offence as possible, and if they change the rule, I wouldn't have a problem with it.
Jeff Marek [00:47:47] It does work philosophically, too.
Elliotte Friedman [00:47:48] Yeah.
Jeff Marek [00:47:49] Like I never understood why that should negate the penalty. You still committed the foul, the fact that they scored and you had no ability to take possession of the puck is irrelevant to me, really. So great one [Gus].
Elliotte Friedman [00:48:00] If you look at all these other leagues, the NFL has become, has tipped the scales for offence. The NBA has tipped the scales for offence. Major League Baseball, I think pitching is too dominant. They're doing everything they can to take away offence.
Jeff Marek [00:48:18] Yeah.
Elliotte Friedman [00:48:19] Because, you know, the specialised pitching, the shift, and they recognise they've got a problem there. The NHL wants a tough league, which the old school in me likes, but I do think that we have to start to tip it towards offence again. I think that's what people want. So things that I might have hated a few years ago? I don't hate them as much as I used to.
Jeff Marek [00:48:44] Does that mean you like them or you just don't hate them as much? You turn the temperature down a little bit or you're actually enjoying it.
Elliotte Friedman [00:48:51] I think we have to tip the scales to offence. Offence sells.
Jeff Marek [00:48:54] Yeah.
Elliotte Friedman [00:48:55] Like especially with this generation, offence sells. Like if you were to say to me, we could have a rule where you get called for a penalty and they score, you still get the penalty? Yeah, I'm probably fine with that.
Jeff Marek [00:49:07] So am I. Curtis in Edmonton, we'll end with this one. "Another podcast I listened to made mention of changes in hockey culture and spoke about the solo rookie skate at pre-game being a punishment. I personally never saw it like that and thought it was more of a, take it all in kid, kind of moment, wondering where you stand on the solo skate and maybe where your peers lean."
Elliotte Friedman [00:49:30] You think that's a punishment?
Jeff Marek [00:49:31] Not at all.
Elliotte Friedman [00:49:32] Yeah, I don't.
Jeff Marek [00:49:33] Not even close. I just look at that is like, okay, this is, this is just your welcome to the NHL and everybody does it. Now we all know it's coming. Like once upon a time, it was a joke like, hey all the guys hung back and, you know, rookie's out there having a solo lap, boy he didn't expect that. Now everybody expects it, but it's just kind of a harmless rite of passage.
Elliotte Friedman [00:49:54] I've never heard of anybody being shamed or feeling shame because of a rookie lap. Most of the time when people go out there, whoever's in the building is going bananas and they've got a huge smile on their faces.
Jeff Marek [00:50:05] They love it. I've never seen one person complain about it that had to do the rookie lap. It's always fun. You know it's coming. You look forward to it. To me it's harmless. It's harmless, and it's a complete rite of passage for players, welcome to the NHL kid. I got about zero problem with that one. Okay! Elliotte. Taking us out is a Montreal-Edmonton connection. Busty and the Bass is a Quebec band that we featured in season four of the podcast, and they're back at it again with the Polaris Music prize winner, Cadence Weapon. The two musical acts linked up earlier this month on a track that brought both their sounds to one song. With their track Airplanes, here's Busty and the Bass and Cadence Weapon on 32 Thoughts the Podcast, enjoy.