Jeff and Elliotte discuss how a pair of North American players in the KHL are handling the conflict in Ukraine and what sporting events we might see cancelled in Russia, they continue to marvel at Zdeno Chára, wonder what Nashville will do with Filip Forsberg, and how Jake Muzzin going on LTIR will impact the Maple Leafs.
A week filled with surprises. Jeff and Elliotte start the podcast off by discussing the situation in Ukraine (00:01), how North American players in the KHL are handling the conflict, and what events in Russia we’ll see cancelled as the country continues their invasion of Ukraine.
The guys also provide an update on the Chicago’s GM search (6:00), Elliotte gushes over Zdeno Chára (11:30), they wonder what Nashville will do with Filip Forsberg (15:40), how the Winnipeg Jets could approach the rest of the season (25:25), Elliotte tells us about his chat with Maple Leafs' prospect Rodion Amirov (31:40), what Kyle Dubas and the Leafs might do with Jake Muzzin on LTIR (37:10), the Flames hiring Bob Murray as a scout (45:00), and they take your questions to wrap up the podcast (48:00).
Full transcript for the episode can be found here by Medha Monjaury
New Podcast Intro Music by Jane’s Party. Thank you to Zach, Tom, Devon and Jeff for composing the intro music this season.
You can find their full discography on Spotify
Music Outro: Straytones - Fire-Fire!
Listen to their latest album “Magic Green River Swimmin’ & Stunning Tarzanka Experience” on Spotify
This podcast is produced and mixed by Amil Delic, and hosted by Jeff Marek and Elliotte Friedman.
Audio Credits: 102.5 The Game, NBC Sports California and Sportsnet.
The views and opinions expressed in this podcast are those of the hosts and guests and do not necessarily reflect the position of Rogers Sports & Media or any affiliates.
OPEN //// Jeff Marek [00:00:03] Welcome once again to 32 Thoughts the Podcast presented by the all-new GMC AT4 lineup. Elliotte, on Wednesday evening, we all watched the invasion of Ukraine and listen, although it feels trivial to talk about hockey at a time like this under this umbrella, you know, hockey is affected as well, but primarily our thoughts are with the people of Ukraine, full stop. The reaction in the hockey community and there are still questions about what happens with World Championships next year supposed to be hosted in St. Petersburg, the World Juniors, the, the U20 supposed to be hosted in Russia next year as well. Questions about what to do with Russian hockey players internationally, Belarusian hockey players internationally as well. I know it is very early, it's only a couple of days now since the invasion, but what is the reaction from the hockey world being?
Elliotte Friedman [00:00:55] I think that it's pretty much the way everybody has reacted. You know, you're horrified to see it. Nobody wants to see that. I think we're all wondering what the punishments are going to be. The soccer is gonna be moved out of there, the UEFA Champions Cup. Some countries have asked to have their qualifying matches, there's two World Cup qualifying matches potentially to be held there, the countries that could play them are saying they shouldn't have to play there. You know, hockey's got two tournaments coming up there, the World Juniors next year and the World Championships in 2023. The IIHF's gonna be under a lot of pressure to take them out of there. And then the thing that's kind of the big deal here is that René Fasel, who until recently was the president of the IIHF, he was very tight with Russia. And you know, the feeling is that if he was still in command, there would be no chance that this would be moved. Now, with Luc Tardif there, you know, we'll see what happens, but he's gonna be under a lot of pressure. But in the short term, Jeff, they've got games to be played there.
Jeff Marek [00:02:00] In the KHL.
Elliotte Friedman [00:02:01] In the KHL. So what happened was, right at the time of the Olympics, they announced when the Olympics were over, they were gonna cancel the rest of the regular season and go right to the playoffs. And at the time, the statement said it was due to COVID. But behind the scenes everybody wondered, was it because of this. The people who run hockey in Russia, they're definitely members of the inner circle. They have a lot of connections to the very top of government. And people wondered, do they know something, and it looks like they sure did. So they're gonna go to the top eight in each conference. One team, Jokerit, which is in Finland, is pulling out because their arena is Russia-owned, and I went through the rosters on Thursday, I counted 28 North Americans, 23 Canadiens, and 5 U.S. born players who are on these rosters. And you know, I reached out just privately and said, you know, just does anybody want to say anything about this, how do, how does everybody feel, basically what reporters do, and everybody was nice about it but, you know, they said, you know, I'm not really comfortable talking about it. And, you know, some agents at least asked their clients, I had other agents who said, look I'm not even gonna ask my clients. There were, I think, 1,800 people there arrested on Thursday for protesting the invasion so, you know, you're trying to protect your client, you don't want any challenge there. But there were two players who did agree to speak to me. You know, one was by phone, one was by text, and the one by phone just, was a quick conversation. It was, I'm considering coming back, but I haven't made a decision. And the other texted that he's going to play. And, you know the one thing he just wanted to tell everybody was that, they were basically told, if they don't play they lose the money that's owed to them. And I double-check that, not that I really felt I needed to double-check because that's kind of the way that hockey's been there, but I double-checked and I was told that was true. And, you know, he simply said to me, it's about providing for the families and, you know, he hopes that people understand that, that if they quit, they don't get paid and their families are depending on that money. It's a really difficult challenge, it's a hard thing. But there are people who need the money financially for their families and, sounds like at least some of them are going to make the decision to play for that reason and I get it. I mean I do. And when you're making a financial decision for your family, these are hard choices. Sometimes you have to do things that maybe you don't like to do or don't feel are right to do, but it's the reality that you have to do it.
Jeff Marek [00:04:46] And in the NHL, Elliotte, Thursday night at MSG the Washington Capitals faced off against the New York Rangers. As expected, Alexander Ovechkin was booed by the Rangers fans quite soundly. Ovechkin hasn't spoken yet, but we believe he will speak, we all understand the sensitivities around all of this and I don't think that Ovechkin wants to rush into any situation where he missteps or says something that will affect him or his family. The next thing we wait for now is Ovechkin, who has been strongly pro-Putin for a number of years, to speak. We shall wait. And to all the victims in Ukraine, we offer both our sympathy and our support. With that we'll begin. Welcome to 32 Thoughts the Podcast.
Jeff Marek [00:06:02] Okay Elliotte, here's my challenge. Every podcast I'm obliged, and perhaps contractually, to ask you what's happening with the Chicago Blackhawks general manager search, but it's a challenge making it sound different. So let me mix it up a little bit. Yo Elliotte! Blackhawks GM search! Where are we at? Like that?
Elliotte Friedman [00:06:21] That's very good.
Jeff Marek [00:06:22] Thanks.
Elliotte Friedman [00:06:22] So the Blackhawks released an update at about 6 o'clock Eastern time on Thursday, I don't even know what day it is Jeff.
Jeff Marek [00:06:29] Thursday.
Elliotte Friedman [00:06:29] Thursday, where they announced that the advisory committee has concluded its evaluation with GM candidates and provided input to leadership. The leadership team is moving to the next step of the process. Additional updates on the search will be provided as the process continues. That's a lot of word salad. As a matter of fact, I think I can taste the tomatoes and the croutons and the cucumbers like, that is, I like some pistachio nuts on my salad too.
Jeff Marek [00:06:57] Oh, very good.
Elliotte Friedman [00:06:58] It's--so that's a lot of--.
Jeff Marek [00:06:59] Vinaigrette drizzle on that too, that's very good.
Elliotte Friedman [00:07:02] That's a lot of word salad. So what I think has happened here is I think they've gone to a final group, and I think the final group is the incumbent Kyle Davidson. I think it's Mathieu Darche from Tampa Bay, and I think it's Jeff Greenberg from the Cubs. And we've talked a lot about this, about how serious they were about someone external and was that real. So I think what that means is that it's, you know, the final general manager is not going to be Peter Chiarelli or Scott Mellanby or Eric Tulsky or Teresa Resch. And we'll find out if there was ever anyone else they interviewed. Now, I think it's possible that they may go back to people in that group and say... For example if it's Kyle Davidson or it's Jeff Greenberg, or even if it's Mathieu Darche to be honest, I'm wondering if they're going to go back to any of those people and say, are you interested in being part of our group? And I've talked a lot about how they could really use an Ed Olczyk too? Like Scott Mellanby for example, he doesn't have a team. You know Chiarelli works for St. Louis, Tulsky, you know, works for Carolina. From what I understand about Carolina, they're not inclined to do that. But again, you know, Mellanby is someone that could. I don't know where this is gonna go, I'm just kind of talking out of my head here. But I think one of the questions we're all kind of wondering is, are they serious about a non-hockey candidate? And one of the things I found out after I wrote the blog, which was just posted as we're doing this podcast Thursday night, is that, Blackhawks really went dark on their candidates for a long time here. And one of the things they've kind of discussed internally was, can we really do this and how would it work and would our fans really buy in and would, you know, our star players or star players around the league really buy in? So I'm curious to see if Greenberg ends up getting this job, what that's going to mean. Because all I can say is I heard his interview was really good. I heard that he was prepared. And, you know, they really liked him. So I think they've got to figure this out. Like, we know they like Davidson. I think the owner or Danny Wirtz [unclear] picked Davidson and, you know, Darche is a guy, his stock is rising. He's got, you know, how many interviews he had in the last two months? He's been interviewed in Anaheim, he's been interviewed in Vancouver, and now he's being interviewed here so.
Jeff Marek [00:09:27] Montreal.
Elliotte Friedman [00:09:27] Montreal, so there's obviously something going on here. You know, obviously people think that he's got real talent, so we'll see where this goes but it sounds like they're down to their final three and we'll see what they decide to do and whether or not this becomes a mix of candidates. It's an interesting one like they've... you know they've they've definitely got us all guessing there's no question about that.
Jeff Marek [00:09:50] Well interesting about this one is that collection, Kyle Davidson, Mathieu Darche and Jeffrey Greenberg, these are all first-timers. And I wondered about at that town hall and the outburst from Rocky Wirtz and knowing how the NHL doesn't ultimately decide on who a team's general manager is going to be. But they can be influential. They can guide, they can recommend.
Elliotte Friedman [00:10:16] Yeah.
Jeff Marek [00:10:16] I thought it might be someone with more experience and experience and an experienced hand at handling owners. Not just handling everyone below, but handling people above at the same time. And... listen, Greenberg may have that skillset, Darche may have that skillset, Davidson may have that skillset, we just haven't seen it yet at the NHL level. I'm mildly surprised here that this is a collection of first-timers here as the second wave of interviews.
Elliotte Friedman [00:10:50] So that makes you wonder what's going on around them like, the one thing about Davidson is, you know, he's got Brian Campbell who he clearly trusts right?
Jeff Marek [00:10:58] Yes.
Elliotte Friedman [00:10:58] I think that's one of the biggest questions I have now is how is this all gonna look. They've said they're not hiring a President of Hockey Ops. I mean, you need some people here that, you know, can fill in the blanks and have experience, just life experience to help get you through some things. And they don't have to be in charge, but they have to be able to give you advice. I just wonder where this is all gonna go, I think it's really fascinating.
Jeff Marek [00:11:22] Do we have any timeline on how this is all going to play out Friedge?
Elliotte Friedman [00:11:25] I honestly don't know. I honestly don't know. I really don't.
Jeff Marek [00:11:30] Okay, the timeline for Zdeno Chara going into Thursday, he had skated 1,651 regular season games, that ties him with Chris Chelios for most by a defenceman in the NHL and on Thursday evening, as Islanders face off against the San Jose Sharks, Chara skates in game number 1,652, and Chara is now number one and in the game, a pretty spirited bout with Jeffrey Viel as well, who gave up some height and some poundage to Zdeno Chara, who delighted in some poundage of Jeffrey Viel.
Elliotte Friedman [00:12:29] Well, first of all that Viel, he's got--
Jeff Marek [00:12:31] He's game.
Elliotte Friedman [00:12:31] He's got big guts.
Jeff Marek [00:12:32] Oh man.
Jeff Marek [00:12:55] He's tough, he's game.
Elliotte Friedman [00:12:56] To be honest, I kind of wondered if Chara would do it just because it's his night. He doesn't have to elevate anybody else if he doesn't want to, but it's his call and if that's what he wants, that's what he wants. I mean, my love for Chara. As one of my buddies tells me, could you be any more in love with Zdeno Chara? Like, do you, first of all, my buddy says to me, do you think he listens to your podcast and I said, there's no way he listens to this garbage. And secondly, he said, do you think if he does listen to this podcast he's embarrassed about the way that you talk lovingly about him? And I said the question is moot because there's no way that he listens to this podcast. So...
Jeff Marek [00:13:34] Someone's going to send him this clip you know that. Someone, someone on the Islanders now is going--
Elliotte Friedman [00:13:41] You know what was really good about this week? In a week that's been--at a time it's been tough for a lot of reasons. We've seen J.F. Berube win his first games and four years.
Jeff Marek [00:13:51] Yeah.
Elliotte Friedman [00:13:51] Right?
Jeff Marek [00:13:52] Yeah.
Elliotte Friedman [00:13:52] The first of those games his 19 year-old son gets to see him play in the NHL for the first time so. We see Andrew Hammond get to win his first game in four years. For those two guys, Berube and Hammond, that's dedication to hockey. You know, they're older guys. They're older by hockey standards, not by real life standards, but they're older guys and they've been around, it would've been very easy for them to just, you know, time to do something else. But no, they persevere and they get these moments. And Chara, like that guy doesn't cheat anything, right?
Jeff Marek [00:14:26] No.
Elliotte Friedman [00:14:27] Everything he does, he's all about, you put the most effort into it and you do it properly. And I think we all have people out there that we watch that get rewarded and you're like, that person does not deserve to get rewarded. And sometimes that's jealousy and I don't like jealousy, but sometimes it's fair. Like, there's nobody who's gonna look at Zdeno Chara and say, that guy doesn't deserve to get rewarded. Nobody is going to say that about him. And it was the same about Chelios. Chelios put in a ton of effort to get where he was, and it's a great thing for Chara he really deserves it and, like you said, that kid Viel, man, he's got a lot of guts to try that.
Jeff Marek [00:15:05] I still do like what Chris Chelios had to say.
Elliotte Friedman [00:15:07] Yeah it was fantastic.
Jeff Marek [00:15:09] "I'm not gonna sit here and say it doesn't bother me."
Elliotte Friedman [00:15:13] Good for him, stay true to yourself and your identity.
Jeff Marek [00:15:17] I love it. Congrats to Chelios for holding that record for as long as he did, and congrats to Chara for breaking it.
Jeff Marek [00:15:37] Elliotte as we record this part of the podcast, and this is kind of the franken-cast, a little bit here, a little bit there, a little in the late evening, little in the middle of the afternoon, it is right now 3:17 Eastern on Thursday, February the 24th, and tonight the Nashville Predators will face off against the Dallas Stars. Pekka Rinne will have Number 35 retired, the first Preds to have his number retired, congratulations. And there are questions about the future of Filip Forsberg in Nashville with the Preds. What do you hear, what do you know?
Elliotte Friedman [00:16:07] So obviously, Andy Strickland's tweet was the one that got this all going the other night and... I don't think this whole idea of somebody reporting somebody then everybody going and running and crapping all over it? You know it felt really badly last week. You know, Frank Cervelli reported that the Golden Knights had asked about the possibility of maybe bringing Fleury back, and that one was one you can't really avoid chasing right? And the Golden Knights said that it's not true and, you know, you have to look into it because it's out there. But I just don't like disagreeing with other reporters, I think sometimes reporters get used in that way. And also, as someone who puts themselves out there with some of the things I hear and think, sometimes I think it's really annoying when I know I'm writing about something and then someone says, no it's not true, so I really hate doing it.
Jeff Marek [00:17:00] Mhm.
Elliotte Friedman [00:17:00] You know the thing with what's going on here, this is the picture I paint about Filip Forsberg. I think that the Nashville Predators know that Filip Forsberg is going to be at least an $8 million player. They cannot bring him in under Ryan Johansen, who's at 8, so he's gonna have to be over 8. I believe that the Nashville Predators have communicated to Filip Forsberg that the highest paid player on the team will remain Roman Josi, who's 9.059. Like these are two hard negotiators here. David Poile? Tough negotiator J.P. Barry who represents Forsberg? Tough negotiator. And I have no doubt that Barry came in with a big number because that's what he's paid to do, you don't negotiate against yourself, and I would bet that number is higher than 9.059 and potentially much higher than 9.059. But that's what his job is and... there's time here. The only way that the predators are trading Filip Forsberg is if they don't believe that they can sign him. Like that's what this is about. So if you're going to tell me that on one hand that David Poile is out there and he's talking to Filip Forsberg and his representatives about an extension, but he's also out there saying, just in case I can't get this done, what's the market? I believe that. I think if Filip Forsberg is happy with somewhere between 8 and a half and 9.059, this is gonna get done. That's what I believe. But you know I should mention there's also the matter of structure, there's also the matter of trade protection, things that the Predators haven't done in the past but, once you do it for Roman Josi, you're gonna do it for Filip Forsberg. This all has to work out. But I just think if it's a number that comes in below 9.059, I believe the Predators are gonna re-sign him. If we don't get a situation where Forsberg is willing to do that, then we've got a problem, and that's the way I look at it.
Jeff Marek [00:19:01] You're right the horse has left the barn on the no-trade clauses, the no, the no-move clauses with the Nashville Predators. That's a war that David Poile has always fought. Doug Armstrong is still fighting that one right now in St. Louis as we all know. I wanna get to talking about the Preds in a second, but a couple more things on Filip Forsberg specifically. How much of a hangup, and you mentioned no details and there's the number and then there's the term, how much of a hangup is term here do you think? Like we're not talking about someone who's entering his 30s, but... he's three years away from it. How much of a factor is that for Nashville do you figure?
Elliotte Friedman [00:19:34] I think you've gotta know you're gonna have to give up term here, right?
Jeff Marek [00:19:38] Yes.
Elliotte Friedman [00:19:38] Is it a problem? I guess it's always a problem if you're worried that a guy is gonna flame out in his early 30s. But, you know, they know Filip Forsberg, you know if you're negotiating with Forsberg right now, he's not signing a three year deal.
Jeff Marek [00:19:53] Right.
Elliotte Friedman [00:19:53] Like this is term and you know it. You know, the advantage that they have is that they know him. They know him. And so they should understand what he's capable of and what his patterns are.
Jeff Marek [00:20:07] Do you think that number that you cited or those numbers that you say, that range that you cite is a discount for Nashville? And the reason I ask that is, if Filip Forsberg goes to markets, could he get more than that range?
Elliotte Friedman [00:20:24] I think it's always possible I mean it just depends on how many people are interested in you and the way he's going right now, a lot of people are gonna want him. You know the other thing too is, don't forget Nashville's a no-tax state.
Jeff Marek [00:20:36] Yes.
Elliotte Friedman [00:20:38] So that's a factor. I believe his wife is from the American southeast too. You know, that's always a factor, you know, as you and I both know, we do what our wives tell us to do. So if they want to be around there, you know, we do it.
Jeff Marek [00:20:53] I go where I'm put.
Elliotte Friedman [00:20:55] I go where I'm put. So, I mean, that could be a factor too. I think all of these things are part of the conversation. I can't imagine that term is a big deal Jeff I mean, you've gotta know if Forsberg's 27 years old he's on an UFA deal, we're talking eight years here, we're not talking four.
Jeff Marek [00:21:13] Nashville is a fascinating team to me. Like an utterly fascinating team to me because, it seemed as if they had a a flirtation about tearing this thing down. We're about to do it. The goalie got hot. They made it to the playoffs. They still traded off a key piece of their team in Ryan Ellis. And they're entertaining reloading here as they find themselves once again in a playoff position like they were, like am I wrong here? Was there like a couple of months where David Poile said to himself, it's time and we have to move here? But it's like they went through a mental rebuild of about two, maybe three months.
Elliotte Friedman [00:21:53] Look I think that they're a little bit surprised about where they are maybe? I don't think they knew what to expect this year. Like when I spoke to Poile a couple of weeks ago, he kind of marvelled at the fact that they were leading the league in, in fighting majors right?
Jeff Marek [00:22:06] Yeah.
Elliotte Friedman [00:22:07] Like I think the Predators this year, they were in the ultimate "we hope for the best situation but we really don't know". You know, they had a bad stretch here, they kind of let Dallas back into the race a bit, but generally they've been much, much better than I think a lot of us expected. I think they've been pleasantly surprised. If you would've told me they would have been in, you know, 14th place in the Western Conference, I think a Forsberg decision's a lot easier. But instead, you're in the race, your fans are probably very happy. You know, the tough thing too is that this news comes as they're having a big weekend. You know Rinne's getting his number retired.
Jeff Marek [00:22:42] Yeah.
Elliotte Friedman [00:22:42] On Thursday night, and they're playing an outdoor game on Saturday and, I wish I was down in Nashville losing brain cells this weekend, but it's just not possible. So that hangs over it too but, you know you're going in the right direction. I think that, that adds a bit of pressure on to making sure you get this done. Forsberg could set your goals record. I think you have to feel good about the way you're trending right? You mean Josi's playing like a Norris Trophy winner, Saros is playing like a Vezina Trophy winner. Rittich gave you a huge win the other night. You think if Florida scores five against you, you're losing, right? And you won that game.
Elliotte Friedman [00:24:31] And Forsberg is giving them what they need, he's having a fantastic season. I mean, to me this looks like a situation where everybody wants it to work out and so, can we get to a spot where everybody's happy? I think we can. But Nashville has said, look, there's only as far as we're willing to go, and that number is 9.0588 point 999999.
Jeff Marek [00:25:01] Just a shade under the the Swiss defenceman. By the way that Florida game was, I know there's still more hockey to be played this week and this weekend, but as we sit here recording this right now, that's the game of the week. That game was fantastic. And Colton Sissons goes 16-and-0 on the faceoff dot. That was a remarkable performance by Colton Sissons. We'll turn our attention now to maybe a team that went into the season saying, let's see what we got here, and the wheels have kind of come off, and we've talked about the Winnipeg Jets before and the decisions that face them but, the Enigma Bowl, as we referred to it for a couple of weeks, the Dallas Stars versus the Winnipeg Jets, two teams that we can't really get a handle on, it's akin to grabbing a handful of water, good luck holding on to it. Trying to figure out who these two squads are. Winnipeg loses that one. Dallas Tyler Seguin overtime heroics there.
Jeff Marek [00:26:34] So where are the Winnipeg Jets at then? Like at some point and maybe it's already happened, do they not have to have the discussion about, maybe we've taken this thing as far as we can?
Elliotte Friedman [00:26:45] I think you have to be having that conversation. Like I'll tell you first like. So we've talked about Winnipeg I think four times on your show this week, and I'm kind of running out of things to say. But then after your show on Thursday, today, somebody called me and, he said that, the biggest thing is that the Jets as an organisation were a little bit in a state of shock at how this year has gone. And some of them are starting to come out of it? It's interesting to me they said that they're really disappointed at how this year has gone. I think everybody understands that. You know, I was one of the people who was saying that Winnipeg was the best team in Canada. And, you know, now they're, they're sixth in the Central in there. The math really isn't good for them. It's just not there. It's really not there. As realisation has set in into where they are. I think it hit that organisation really hard.
Jeff Marek [00:27:48] Hmm.
Elliotte Friedman [00:27:48] And this has been a hard year for the Jets for a lot of reasons. And this issue with the way they've played is now the latest. You know, this person said to me, you know, they're starting to come out of it. You know, you have your scouting meetings and as part of those meetings, you start to ask really tough questions. And the organisation has started to ask some really tough questions and, you know, I haven't asked anybody there about it? But the big surgery that they might have to make, I don't know if they're gonna be prepared to do it at the trade deadline. I mean there's the obvious ones, you know, what are you gonna do with Paul Stastny? What are you gonna do with Andrew Copp? And then I think the bigger questions, you know, Scheifele's name started to get out there like people were like, maybe they have to trade Scheifele, and you know how he is, and you know he heard it right? You just know by the way he played, that he heard it. He wouldn't like that.
Jeff Marek [00:28:44] Right.
Elliotte Friedman [00:28:44] I just think that all those kinds of questions Jeff, I gotta think those are end of the season or prepare towards the end of the season conversations. And to me, where it starts is actually with Hellebuyck. And I have no issue with the way that Hellebuyck's played, I think he's played really hard, I think he's a great goalie. I've just been thinking about... What's my line? I only judge others as I judge myself. I think I'm like a lot of people that the last couple of years have been incredibly challenging at times. Like I know myself, I've faced burnout in the last two years like, I haven't faced burnout before.
Jeff Marek [00:29:24] Yeah.
Elliotte Friedman [00:29:24] And I look at Hellebuyck and the way he was talking, like he was one of the first to really come out and say:
Elliotte Friedman [00:30:26] And after a number of other players were more comfortable saying it, but he was one of the first. And at the end of the season with Hellebuyck, I actually wonder if, a long break where he can unplug and be with his family and do whatever he does in the summer might actually be the best thing for him. Because he's a guy I look at and I say, man that guy's been through a lot. He's been through an awful lot, and I just wonder if a break's gonna to help him in the future. And that's one of the things I kind of wonder if they're just talking about there with him and some of their other players. Is he saying what that whole group is feeling?
Jeff Marek [00:31:08] Hmm.
Elliotte Friedman [00:31:09] And maybe might the best thing for the Jets be... time? And I do wonder if that's kind of being discussed in there. That's an organisation that has been through a lot in the past couple of years, a lot.
Jeff Marek [00:31:24] And that's an organisation that has a reputation as being loyal to their employees, whether it's their coaching staff, whether it's their players as well. I don't think anyone would be surprised if this is an organisation that right now just needs a timeout and a reset and a chill out period. I want to get to the Toronto Maple Leafs, and I want to get to Jake Muzzin and the blue line situation and the goalie conversation but I want to talk to you a little bit about Rodion Amirov, and the Maple Leafs announcing that their former first round draft pick, Rodion Amirov, has been diagnosed with a brain tumour, he's undergoing treatments, as we all know now in Germany. You had a Zoom call and wrote a really good piece on him and the situation at sportsnet.ca. Could you describe the conversation that you had with Amirov, because as I was reading this, I'm getting the strong sense that the one thing he wants to reinforce to himself, people around him and anyone that comes in contact with him is, he's remaining positive through all of this.
Elliotte Friedman [00:32:23] Well that's it. You know, first of all, I've never met him, obviously. You know, when he came to North America last year after the KHL season, he showed up for the playoffs. You know, he missed the first three games in Toronto because he was still going through his quarantine so the first game he went to was Game 7. So nobody really got too much of a chance to meet him. He was skating with the taxi squad. You know, the Maple Leafs did that really nice gesture where they, before their practise or their morning skate on Thursday, they did that team greeting?
Jeff Marek [00:32:53] Yes.
Elliotte Friedman [00:32:53] For him? And Tavares said after that he was one of the few players who got a chance to meet him because I asked him if he went into the Maple Leafs dressing room last year during the playoffs at all and he said he was able to go to the one at the practise facility, but he wasn't able to go to the one at the NHL rink because of COVID rules. So a lot of those guys probably wouldn't have had the opportunity to meet him. But as I wrote in the piece, and I've said since then, just looking at him on the screen, you wouldn't have been able to tell that anything was wrong with him. He still has his long black hair. He was smiling. You know, I should mention, he was wearing a Yankee hat, and I said to him, what, the Leafs didn't send you a Leaf hat? And you know, everything was done through Dan Milstein his agent because Amirov doesn't, obviously can't speak fluent English yet, and he kind of laughed when I said that and he goes, I just like hats. And that just happened to be the one that he grabbed. And I will say this. The process of this was, when Kyle Dubas had his media availability after the All-Star break, he was evasive on Amirov and, for obvious reasons. Now that we know the truth we understand that he was evasive.
Jeff Marek [00:34:08] Yeah.
Elliotte Friedman [00:34:09] And I just started asking around. You know the first thing I actually thought about Jeff was, is this a mental health issue or something like that and, I wasn't really looking to go anywhere with it. I was just more or less just concerned for the person, is everything okay? And eventually I kind of walked into it and I just said, look like, okay, you know, when he's ready to talk, I'll make myself available. And I think that one of the things that everybody here was concerned about was, it's the trade deadline and, you know, names are gonna start getting mentioned and at some point in time, you know, the Leafs might just say look Amirov's not available, and I don't think they would have leaked it or anything like that, but someone would've found out.
Jeff Marek [00:34:52] Yeah.
Elliotte Friedman [00:34:52] I think there was concern that someone would've found out, you know, Toronto was obviously very private about this. So eventually it came back to me that okay, but I was told that the only real condition I was given was, we don't want this to be a sad piece. Amirov wants to come across as optimistic and determined to show the right attitude, and the conversation was all like that. Like there, there was no point in the conversation where he said anyone should feel sorry for him, or he even came across as feeling sorry for himself. I'll tell you a fine story. So his, the dog, the Maltipoo he has, the name is Shanya.
Jeff Marek [00:35:35] Yeah.
Elliotte Friedman [00:35:35] And I misunderstood something, and I had initially something written that the dog was named after Brendan Shanahan after he got drafted by the Leafs. And so I was doing that, and then someone reached out to me and said, don't write that, it's not true. He was laughing about that too. He thought that was very funny, that I thought that he named his dog after Brendan Shanahan. So you just wouldn't be able to tell that this was a person who was in any kind of bad state. And, you know, obviously the diagnosis is a big challenge. But I think in those moments you get to choose how you are defined. And I think, by the piece, we all got to see how Amirov chooses he can be defined. And I should say here too, that he said, any time you speak about this, please make sure you thank the Maple Leafs and Ufa for me. He said they were incredible. Both of them. You know, it was diagnosed at the end of January, as I wrote in the piece the doctors in Germany were concerned for a little bit of time before that, so I think people here knew the possibility there was something serious and they were really worried for him, but they supported everything he did or needed to do and I know he feels incredibly thankful to both those teams, and I know it weighed hard on both those teams.
Jeff Marek [00:36:59] You don't have to be a fan of the team to cheer for the player in this case, the person. Elliotte we wish Rodion Amirov the best of all possible outcomes to his situation.
Jeff Marek [00:37:23] Sticking with the Toronto Maple Leafs, the Jake Muzzin situation, first of all, anytime there's a concussion situation, especially two concussions back to back right away, you're always concerned for the longterm health of the person so we really do hope for the best for Jake Muzzin here. From the hockey point of view, what does this do to the Toronto Maple Leafs now, Elliotte?
Elliotte Friedman [00:37:46] Is this another Marek, let's get to right to the hockey stuff.
Jeff Marek [00:37:52] No this isn't. I've learnt my lesson about getting away to business and not being sensitive enough to people that are going through trades, even though they've been part of the NHL going back to 1917, somehow it still sneaks up on people, but I understand that there are emotions involved and there are things other than just, hey who's gonna be on my fantasy team. I get it, I understand. First of all you always think of the player in any situation like this and you think of the people around him.
Jeff Marek [00:38:18] Yeah.
Elliotte Friedman [00:38:18] Like I can remember talking to Colby Armstrong about his concussions when he was with the Maple Leafs and he said, like look, I think it was horrible for me and was horrible to my family. I had to stay in, you know, in my bedroom and in a darkened room, this is over Christmas, and I couldn't be part of any family functions as well and then it has a toll on my wife, it has a toll on my kids and my family. It affects everybody in your orbit. It's primarily the player, but it's also everybody around the player as well and I think we should, as you mentioned, all be sensitive to that.
Elliotte Friedman [00:38:48] Yes. And I think that's how we all feel like most importantly you hope that Jake Muzzin gets to a point where he's comfortable going back on the ice and playing.
Jeff Marek [00:38:58] Yes.
Elliotte Friedman [00:38:58] And that's huge. You know, we just don't know, and I don't think the Maple Leafs know how long he's gonna be out. He's on long term, so we know he's going to miss at least 10 games or 24 days. That's the rule. But a couple months ago, we had a concussion and he missed a month. And we know that with concussions you worry about the cumulative effects so you sit there and you're saying, okay, he missed a month last time, we're gonna be careful of this, it's gonna be more than a month this time. And on that, I think we can be pretty sure. There's nine weeks left in the regular season. It's possible that he could be out until the end of the regular season. But I think the Maple Leafs have time to kind of navigate that a little bit and see where everything is. He's gonna be out a while, they know that, you just can't put a timeline on it. I do think that the Maple Leafs have adjusted in the aftermath of his injury in terms of thinking what they can potentially do. I mentioned the name J.T. Miller as someone I think who would be a good fit for them. You know, I think that they had a conversation with Vancouver about it, I don't think that's so likely. I'll tell you this. The one thing about Toronto is they don't have a ton of draft picks, but they do have some really good prospects. They have really good prospects that other teams would like. You know, I don't think they're doing them for rentals. Now, the other thing too is, but what someone said to me is, are you even giving that up for a guy like, like, let's just put Matthew Knies in this conversation okay?
Jeff Marek [00:40:37] Okay.
Elliotte Friedman [00:40:37] Because I think he's at the top, him and Niemela are probably at the top of, you know, Toronto's prospect list. They've got Abruzzese, they've got Robertson, these are all good prospects. But I would think that Knies and Niemela would be at the top. And someone said to me today, they think Toronto could make a deal for J.T. Miller, but are you even doing a Knies or Niemela for someone who's only there at most for a year and a half potentially? He's not even sure that Toronto would do that. You know, someone said to me today, they said, Kyle Dubas knows he's gotta have a good playoff this year. But he asked me, do you think that he's the kind of guy whose ego is so big that he would make that deal to save himself potentially? And my answer was, I don't think he would do anything that he thought was dumb for now or in the future. I don't think he's that kind of person. And, you know, he said to me, I agree. Like Ken Holland, we've talked about it, look, we all know what's facing the Oilers in net, we'll see what he ends up doing, but to this point, he said, look, I'm not trading a first for a goalie, and he had a chance to trade a second and a third for Korpisalo, and he didn't do that. I just think that Dubas, regardless of what the situation is around him, he's not gonna do anything he thinks is long term bad for short term gain. I just don't see it. Do you think I'm wrong on that?
Jeff Marek [00:42:13] No but the thing is, there's plenty of historical precedent to show that when a general manager feels his job's in jeopardy, he makes moves like this. And I'm not saying that Kyle Dubas thinks that his job is in jeopardy but listen, we just had a conversation about Filip Forsberg. How did he end up in Nashville? Like that was the Martin Erat deal that was, you know, Filip Forsberg's our, you know, high scoring first round pick but I need to do something here with the Washington Capitals. Like I think we all saw that move for what it was. And there is a lot of precedent in the NHL for general managers making these moves and the thinking is like, if I don't trade this guy, I'm not gonna be here when he develops, so what does it matter?
Elliotte Friedman [00:42:56] I don't see him having that kind of thought process, I don't think he thinks that way. The other thing too, is he's 36. He's still got lots of years to be a GM in this league ahead of him.
Jeff Marek [00:43:08] Oh yeah.
Elliotte Friedman [00:43:08] I think also, as much as I think they'd like to add another forward. I just wonder where they feel their biggest need is.
Jeff Marek [00:43:17] Well, here's the question then. Is it second line to help the John Tavares situation? Is it blue line to help the top four mix or, could it be in net?
Elliotte Friedman [00:43:30] I'm wondering if they're thinking about that. You know, my theory's been on Campbell that the situation disrupted him right?
Jeff Marek [00:43:37] Yes. The pause yeah.
Elliotte Friedman [00:43:39] Yeah, it's getting tougher and tougher to say that because it's been longer and longer since the pause, right?
Jeff Marek [00:43:47] Mhm.
Elliotte Friedman [00:43:48] So I do feel that way? But at some point in time, this is a results-based business right? You gotta come back and say, okay, enough of that, I'm back up to my standard. I have to think they're considering it in goal. And also, especially with Muzin out, like the thing is, we're talking about is Muzzin gonna be out until the end of the regular season, he might be back before then well, I hope I'm wrong about this and I hope it's not true, but what if he turns out to be out longer?
Jeff Marek [00:44:19] Yeah. But then you're looking at not just doing a small thing at deadline, you're looking at a huge trade.
Elliotte Friedman [00:44:25] And now they have an extra ton of cap room, so they can do that anyway.
Jeff Marek [00:44:29] Mhm.
Elliotte Friedman [00:44:30] You know, the Maple Leafs by the maths, they could get close to 7 million in cap room using LTIR.
Jeff Marek [00:44:36] Yes.
Elliotte Friedman [00:44:36] So, you know, you're gonna have the option to do some things.
Jeff Marek [00:44:41] How big do you think they go?
Elliotte Friedman [00:44:43] I don't think thire GM is afraid, put it that way. Let's see, they have time. We've got three and a half weeks to make up more stuff.
Jeff Marek [00:44:52] Let's get to a couple other teams here. Something that we didn't touch on on on the radio show this week at all but we should probably spend some time here with is, former general manager of the Anaheim Ducks Bob Murray has been hired by the Calgary Flames as a scout. How did all this come about, do you know?
Elliotte Friedman [00:45:11] You know, Bob Murray has a long history with some members of the Calgary organisation. I've seen some articles in the aftermath of it getting out that Brad Treliving pointed out that they had a relationship when both were assistant general managers, Treliving in Phoenix and Murray in Anaheim before he got to the number one position. Obviously, as two GMs in the same division that see each other a lot, they would've had the relationship there and also, you know, Bob Murray and Darryl Sutter have a long history together from their days in Chicago. You know, Bob Murray stepped down this year. And from what I understand, he took ownership of it. He didn't contest it. He spent time in a facility to get help for his problems with alcohol. And I think you deserve an opportunity to show that you've, that you've learned. And you know, someone I spoke to the other day said he's really tried to change his lifestyle. Go to bed earlier, you know when you're at games as he's now scouting for the Flames, he's going to be very careful of what he does, you know, around those games before and after. But you know, he's somebody who, you know, tries to live a healthier life. I remember when I was younger, there was a story about Chris Mullen in Sports Illustrated, and this is one of those stories that really sticks with you. And Chris Mullen was a Hall of Fame basketball player, and he had a battle with alcohol. And every paragraph of that story began with: Chris Mullen is an alcoholic. And the idea was to get it into your head that it's not something that goes away and it's something you have to be constantly mindful of.
Jeff Marek [00:46:53] Mhm.
Elliotte Friedman [00:46:53] And I heard later that Mullen really liked the approach of the story. So I've always, I've always remembered that. So, you know, from what I've heard, Bob Murray understands that, you know, this is a challenge, but he's trying to make the right choices and the right life changes to do this challenge, and I think he deserves the opportunity to show that he's capable of meeting it. And, you know, hockey's been a huge part of his life. If he feels that some level of hockey, being a scout and maybe not being the pressure of a general manager can help him with that, I'm okay with that. We should be trying to help others.
Jeff Marek [00:47:33] Yes, anyone. I'm always in support of someone that's trying to make themselves better and not just help themselves but, you know, make good with all the people around him, specifically from his past. So we wish him and the Calgary Flames all the best in this endeavour. All right, we're gonna take a pause Elliotte, come back with with some emails at 32thoughts@sportsnet.ca, we'll be right back.
Jeff Marek [00:48:06] Okay Elliotte, we'll finish up with a couple emails here, at 32thoughts@sportsnet.ca, and one phone call at 1-833-311-3232, you can call it the thought line. Let's get to our first email. This comes to us, oh you'll like this. Stuart from the UK currently serving abroad the HMS Protector in Antarctica, and also sent some really cool pictures of Antarctic wildlife and also a picture of himself aboard the ship in a Flames jersey. So it's a great look Stuart, thanks so much for sending those pictures in and submitting this question. The question is about tanking. "I would imagine deliberately telling a team to lose wouldn't be a good look for the league or for sports betting, so how would they do it?"
Elliotte Friedman [00:48:52] Ooh. Well I think the most obvious way you can tank is by your roster right? You can trade people out, ship people out. I mean, you remember that Arizona-Buffalo thing a few years ago, they changed the lottery because of what was going on with that one.
Jeff Marek [00:49:09] Tim Murray, Tim Murray. Just doing everything he could to get Connor McDavid.
Elliotte Friedman [00:49:14] And he got Jack Eichel out of it. But that's one of the things that happens right, is that you, you strip your roster down and you say, okay, it's pretty obvious that we're not gonna be able to compete on a game in game out basis. I don't think you can ever really tell players to lose. I think players are smart enough to know if you have a chance or not. But, you know, as you're seeing right now in Montreal, Marty St. Luis lit a fire under Cole Caufield and Nick Suzuki, and you don't want your young players ever to think it's acceptable to lose. So it's not about saying we're gonna lose, but it's putting together a roster some years where you know you don't have a chance.
Jeff Marek [00:49:52] Okay, voicemail time! And by the way, that is a great question Stuart, and thanks a lot for the pictures again. Voicemail time! This is Chris in New York.
Elliotte Friedman [00:50:25] That's very good.
Jeff Marek [00:50:27] Okay that just made my day, thanks Chris. The best part of the show. There've been a few examples of goaltenders winning both the Hart and the Vezina. Jose Theodore, Dominic Hasek, Jacques Plante did it in 1961? 1962? Somewhere in there?
Elliotte Friedman [00:50:46] So basically to answer your question was, in the modern era, that has never happened. If you look at the goalies who've won the Hart trophy in the modern era and I'll get the hockey nerd to explain when the modern era officially is.
Jeff Marek [00:51:01] Hey!
Elliotte Friedman [00:51:01] Carey Price won the Hart in 2015, he won the Vezina. Jose Theodore won the Hart in 2002, he won the Vezina. Dominic Hasek won the Hart back to back in 1997 and '98. He won the Vezina. Jacques Plante won the Hart in 1962, he won the Vezina. The last guy you go back to, who won the Hart without winning the Vezina was Al Rollins for Chicago in 1954. That year, the Vezina trophy winner was Harry Lumley. But what has changed since then?
Jeff Marek [00:51:35] Okay, so Harry Lumley played for the Maple Leafs in that season. And by the way, that Al Rollins Hart trophy? Al Rollins played for the Chicago Blackhawks. Do you know what spot the Chicago Blackhawks finished that year?
Elliotte Friedman [00:51:48] I won't look it up.
Jeff Marek [00:51:49] Laaaast. Here's spoiler alert, last place in the NHL. It was almost as if they said, they were bad, but if they didn't have this guy, how much worse could it be? Like there were significant discussions about doing something with the Blackhawks, either, and there were drafts later on, all teams had to surrender a couple of players to Chicago to kind of beef them up because they were so awful. But that's the unique thing about '54 is, Al Rollins was on a last place team and won the Hart trophy. Could that happen today Elliotte Friedman?
Elliotte Friedman [00:52:22] Oh wait a second, hold on, hold on, hold on a second. You didn't answer the rule change.
Jeff Marek [00:52:26] I'm gonna get there.
Elliotte Friedman [00:52:27] But that's what the questioner was asking.
Jeff Marek [00:52:29] But I'm colouring this in a little bit Friedge, you see Elliotte I'm an artist, dammit, and you don't understand art, and I'm painting here you know, I'm--you may think that they're words, but I look at them as sound shapes. And that's what I'm playing with here on--
Elliotte Friedman [00:52:42] This is finger painting. This is not art, this finger painting.
Jeff Marek [00:52:47] Okay so that's the Al Rollins story. Here's where it changed: 1981, the way that the trophy is awarded changed. Before 1981, whichever goaltender allowed the fewest goals in the NHL, that goaltender got the Vezina. So to Elliotte's point 1954, Harry Lumley wins it for the Toronto Maple Leafs. Despite the fact that Al Rollins won the Hart, Lumley surrendered the fewest goals, so he wins the Vezina Trophy. It was changed in 1981. It went to a voted format and Billy Smith of the New York Islanders was the first to be voted to the Vezina trophy. Now the funny thing about, and Burkie always talks about it--
Elliotte Friedman [00:53:27] And that's when they brought in the Jennings trophy right? So the goalies who gave up the fewest goals, they got that.
Jeff Marek [00:53:33] Named after William Jennings, former New York Rangers president who once put a bounty on the head of Ted Green. Interesting. So Burkie always mentions the funniest thing about who gets to vote on which trophy. Burkie always says. why do they let the general managers vote on the Vezina? That's the position that us general managers screw up on the most, yet we're the ones that are voting on this damn thing, and he's got a really good point. But there's your long-winded, even though Elliotte didn't like the Al Rollins story.
Elliotte Friedman [00:54:03] I didn't say I didn't like it, it's just like, give--someone emails or makes a phone call.
Jeff Marek [00:54:09] Yeah!
Elliotte Friedman [00:54:09] Give em the answer!
Jeff Marek [00:54:10] You just didn't like it cause he pulled the Burkie on you. He didn't thank you.
Elliotte Friedman [00:54:14] That was actually pretty funny, actually liked that more than the actual question.
Jeff Marek [00:54:17] Yeah it was really good.
Elliotte Friedman [00:54:17] I should say I went back through time as well. There were two other cases.
Jeff Marek [00:54:22] Okay!
Elliotte Friedman [00:54:22] Before Rollins where a goalie won the Hart but not the Vezina? 1950 Chuck Rayner Hart, Bill Durnan Vezina. And 1929 Roy Worters.
Jeff Marek [00:54:32] Shrimp?
Elliotte Friedman [00:54:33] Yes, Shrimp Worters.
Jeff Marek [00:54:35] Yeah.
Elliotte Friedman [00:54:35] And George Hainsworth Vezina. You know the interesting thing about that to the questioner is, as you said there, the thing that makes it more possible now that it could potentially happen is that there's two different groups of voters.
Jeff Marek [00:54:48] Yes.
Elliotte Friedman [00:54:50] The Hart voters are the media, and the Vezina voters are the GMs. And I gotta tell you something, I do wonder if we're gonna get to the day where the media doesn't vote for this anymore. But the one thing I always joke about with--because there's someone from the league who says, you guys shouldn't vote on it, and I said, that's fine if you really feel that way, but don't tell me that there won't be hidden agendas and goofy stuff that happens.
Jeff Marek [00:55:13] Oh yeah.
Elliotte Friedman [00:55:14] If, you know the GMs are voting. There was the one year where I know some people were really upset about the way the Vezina went down and one of those seasons. It was the year that the late great Ray Emery went like 18-and-0 for the Blackhawks and he got votes, and some of the GMs got mad that he wasn't even the starting goalie, because they thought some GMs were trying to fix it for their own candidates. So it's always crazy.
Jeff Marek [00:55:39] It is. We'll finish up with this one, Eric in Edmonton. "I remember reading the book Behind the Moves." That is an excellent book. "I remember reading the book Behind the Moves that when Glen Sather was a player in the 1970s, he represented himself instead of hiring an agent and recommended that other players do the same. In today's game, are there any well-known NHL players who represent themselves rather than hiring an agent?" Okay, before we answer the question, are you surprised that a, that a GM Glen Sather, because he probably would've been a general manager when Jason Ferris interviewed him for Behind the Moves, recommended that players don't use agents? There are some instances in the game today of players not using agents, and the most obvious one that we've talked about a couple of different times is Drew Doughty of the Los Angeles Kings Elliotte.
Elliotte Friedman [00:56:31] Drew Doughty, Anthony Duclair. We interviewed him on this podcast after he signed in Florida.
Jeff Marek [00:56:36] Yeah.
Elliotte Friedman [00:56:36] And he talked about that whole process. Nicklas Backstrom, his last deal with the Washington Capitals was done without an agent. And when I sent him a note of congratulations because I'd written, I don't know if this is ever a good idea because it gets too personal, he wrote me back and said, do you think it's a good idea now? So it was good to know he was reading. It doesn't happen a ton, like I've said in my case, I tried it once and I took it to personally. I know some people in broadcasting have done their own deals. I know Ron for a few times has done his own.
Jeff Marek [00:57:10] Yeah, I've never done my own. Not since... I think my first one was when I went from Toronto Radio to CBC. Ever since then I've had an agent do all my deals, I wonder about general managers, whether they like players that have agents or like players that don't have agents, and I would imagine that they would like it when it comes to contract negotiation time, but not so much on a day to day course where instead of having a buffer between the player and management, you gotta go right to the player now. What do GMs think of the phenomenon of players without agents?
Elliotte Friedman [00:57:44] It depends. I know some GMs who like it because they think they're... battles for contracts, they're better prepared to handle those negotiations than players are. But there's also times when you have to say something really hard to an agent like, you know, what's going on with your players, there's something going on that is affecting the way they play or, or you have to be really blunt in negotiations? And you know if you say it to the person themselves, you risk ruining the relationship all the time, where the agent knows it's generally business. That's one of the things that scares people about negotiating directly with players.
Jeff Marek [00:58:26] All right. Elliotte, let's end on this. This is really cool. Taking us out a band that holds nothing back. Straytones is a four piece psychedelic rock band that have been playing together going back to 2012. Their sound is heavily influenced by surf rock and even some old school punk rock to boot. From their latest album, Magic Green River Swimmin' and Stunning Tarzanka Experience, here's Straytones with Fire-Fire! On 32 Thoughts the Podcast, oui oui!